Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

ESV Study Bible

11:25 Paul discloses a mystery to the Gentiles to prevent them from being proud. The word “mystery” does not necessarily refer to something puzzling or difficult to grasp, but to something that was previously hidden and is now revealed. The mystery here has three elements: (1) at this time in salvation history the majority of Israel has been hardened; (2) during this same time the full number of Gentiles is being saved; and (3) God will do a new work in the future in which he will save all “Israel” (v. 26)

BK Commentary
Romans 11
Israel's corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery. In Scripture a mystery is not a truth difficult to understand, but a truth previously unrevealed (and therefore unknown) which is now revealed and publicly proclaimed (cf. Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; at Matt. 13:10- 16, see the chart that lists NT mysteries). Paul wanted to make sure his Gentile readers knew about the mystery concerning Israel in God's sovereign choice. God's purpose was so that you may not be conceited (lit., "wise in yourselves"). God's sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God. . .After "the fullness of the Gentiles" (11:25, kjv) the partial hardening of Israel will be removed and all Israel will be saved, that is, "delivered" (in the OT "saved" often means "delivered") from the terrible Tribulation by the Messiah, the Deliverer. To confirm this, Paul quoted from Isaiah 59:20- 21 and 27:9. The statement, "All Israel will be saved" does not mean that every Jew living at Christ's return will be regenerated. Many of them will not be saved, as seen by the fact that the judgment of Israel, to follow soon after the Lord's return, will include the removal of Jewish rebels (Ezek. 20:34- 38). Following this judgment God will then remove godlessness and sins from the nation as He establishes His New Covenant with regenerate Israel (cf. Jer. 31:33- 34)"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?

http://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html

". . .In this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation. Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Paul speaks of the “full inclusion” of Israel in the future (Romans 11:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will fulfill Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). God’s larger redemptive plan involves both Jews and Gentiles. When Paul says Israel will be “saved,” he means their deliverance to this physical inheritance as integral to God’s ultimate plan (Romans 11:30–36).

So how will “all Israel be saved” and restored in the land? The details of this deliverance are filled out in p***ages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs during the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8 and 11:1–12. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

The tribulation period will feature unprecedented apostasy in Israel for 3½ years, with a “second exodus” arranged by God to protect the faithful remnant from Satan (Revelation 11—12) just as in the first Exodus. Isaiah predicted this as well: “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). The gospel will be preached to all the world, and Christ will return to meet the faithful remnant (Revelation 14) and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). The apostates left in Jerusalem will be purged, and the remnant set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance: Zion will rule over all the nations defeated under the banner of Messiah the King, and Israel’s “salvation” is the wholeness and peace she will enjoy during the millennial reign of Christ. . ."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm retired. 1-1:30 am is my normal bedtime. I've always been a night owl, though. Even when I worked, I rarely went to bed before midnight.

well on a normal day i get home around 7:30 to 8:00...and for the next few hours no one seems to be on the forum ever....But the moment I go to sleep, "bingo!"....everyone is back on-line and posting away....

right now there are so many new posts that I just dont have the energy to go look at them all...

[alanmolstad]

People always have the free Will to believe or not believe....its up to them to decide that stuff.

And we are not so controlled that we lose our Free Will.....consider even Pharaoh at the time of Moses always had Free Will....even when he was all part of god's plan for the Jews, he still always had free Will..

We are the same....We always have Free Will too...no matter the part we play in God's plans, we still keep our Free Will at all times.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

People always have the free Will to believe or not believe....its up to them to decide that stuff.

People have the invitation to come to Christ and anyone who places their faith in Him will be saved. The problem is with man and his sinful nature--he doesn't want anything to do with God. Read again what Paul says in Romans 3

Romans 3
09 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are ALL under the power of sin.
10 As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

[alanmolstad]

Even Pharaoh had Free Will at all times.........

[alanmolstad]

and trust me...if even pharaoh had Free Will, then you and I always have our Free Will too.....

[alanmolstad]

Free Will is not just the ability to chose...Its not just that because animals have the ability to make decisions.

But Free Will is being "free"
Free from interference.....
Free to make up your own mind.

This makes us able to Love and return other's Love .
it also means that we are responsible for our decisions , because we made them free of anyone's interference.

This goes back to the Lord's statement that the people of the city "would not" come to him...
Notice jesus did not say the people "could not" come to him.


If the people lacked Free Will, then Jesus was in error , as the people were locked into a behavior and were unable to decide things for themselves....
A lack of Free Will means someone else is pulling the strings....

But there are no strings......just us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Even Pharaoh had Free Will at all times.........

Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Tell me what you think these verses are saying?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

http://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html

". . .In this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation. Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Paul speaks of the “full inclusion” of Israel in the future (Romans 11:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will fulfill Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). God’s larger redemptive plan involves both Jews and Gentiles. When Paul says Israel will be “saved,” he means their deliverance to this physical inheritance as integral to God’s ultimate plan (Romans 11:30–36).

So how will “all Israel be saved” and restored in the land? The details of this deliverance are filled out in p***ages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs during the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8 and 11:1–12. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

The tribulation period will feature unprecedented apostasy in Israel for 3½ years, with a “second exodus” arranged by God to protect the faithful remnant from Satan (Revelation 11—12) just as in the first Exodus. Isaiah predicted this as well: “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). The gospel will be preached to all the world, and Christ will return to meet the faithful remnant (Revelation 14) and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). The apostates left in Jerusalem will be purged, and the remnant set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance: Zion will rule over all the nations defeated under the banner of Messiah the King, and Israel’s “salvation” is the wholeness and peace she will enjoy during the millennial reign of Christ. . ."

Thanks, Billy....that's interesting. Like I said, I know almost nothing about end times.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Free Will is not just the ability to chose...Its not just that because animals have the ability to make decisions.

But Free Will is being "free"
Free from interference.....
Free to make up your own mind.

Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelek

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar,
2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.”
4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation?
5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[Libby]

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.

[Libby]

God gives a command. We are free to disobey. There will be consequences.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks, Billy....that's interesting. Like I said, I know almost nothing about end times.

Well it goes like this...

1st there is a warm-up band (Beast and Anti-Christ).....then there is big battle where people still fight with horses......
and then at the end....we are hoping for some great fireworks when suddenly the sky just rolls up and that's it....and about a few billion people all turn to their wives and say, "Well that sucked"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have gone over and over with you the verses that clearly teach this. The problem is that you can't accept what it teaches--at least not yet. Perhaps you will someday see it.

I used to see it your way, Billy. It just doesn't make sense to me, that way. I really started falling away, because of it. Is that one of those "hard sayings" that the Bible talks about? I hope not.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.

its part of the deal to be sure.

I have the ability to do good,,,,and at times i do good.
but the odd part of Free Will is that it allows you to come up with reasons why doing bad is also good......

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Well it goes like this...

1st there is a warm-up band (Beast and Anti-Christ).....then there is big battle where people still fight with horses......
and then at the end....we are hoping for some great fireworks when suddenly the sky just rolls up and that's it....and about a few billion people all turn to their wives and say, "Well that sucked"

lol....Aye!!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its part of the deal to be sure.

I have the ability to do good,,,,and at times i do good.
but the odd part of Free Will is that it allows you to come up with reasons why doing bad is also good......

Yes, which is why we need to remember to ask for Christ's guidance at all times.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

lol....Aye!!

I had a bunch of friends when I was newly married, and they had went to a lot of End Times cl***, and they would sit around and tell me "how it will go"

i listened, and never believed them for a moment.

i have yet to find any End Times teacher that i felt was worth the time to listen to.
But the very worst guys are the teachers that try to do "bible Math"...they are a total joke.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, which is why we need to remember to ask for Christ's guidance at all times.

yes.....I dont think it was an accident that Jesus picked out a little kid to show us what we should act like in the Kingdom......
The kid Im sure did not want Jesus putting him in the middle of a bunch of men, but the child simply trusted Jesus and did what he was told.....and Jesus pointed to this and its kinda like what we are to be like in our daily walk......
"trusting, but not too sure"

we are to trust the person of Christ,,,,and even if we dont really understand Him at all......

[Libby]

we are to trust the person of Christ,,,,and even if we dont really understand Him at all......

Yes...........

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.

I wasn't asking about "consequences of our actions". I was speaking about the action itself.

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[Libby]

Not without he and his whole family dying.

[alanmolstad]

god is able to do work in our lives without needing to take away our free will.....

[alanmolstad]

if God needed to take away my Free Will just to carry out His plans for me in my life, He would not be much of a god.....

And would simply be not worth worshiping....