Originally Posted by God-free [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Of course, your choices are yours to make. But, I’m not asking what choice you would make, and I’m not asking what your reasons for making it would be. The main area of concern (which I’ve stated repeatedly and which everyone here is skirting) is on the coerciveness of each proposition (i.e. Do this or I‘ll hurt you).


The "coerciveness" you mention is a condition contrary to fact, and an absurdity.

That is because you fail to recognize the first and primary attribute of God, and that is love and then you exalt the primary condition of humanity, our sinfulness expressed as our free will to be absolute in our refusal to bow our knee before our Creator. You must see that God is not willing that anyone die, and be separated from Him at death, but He wants us to repent of our sins and stubborn pride so that we can enjoy heaven with Him.

You need to remember that God is very very patient, and is not willing that anyone die; it grieves Him, but He does draw the line, then He acts. He says that in Genesis. People now do not understand that before the Flood, there was a sophisticated civilization in existence. Before the Flood there were iron workers, and bronze workers, This is significant because the "modern" iron age did not begin until c. 900 BC. It also says that there were musicians who handled the "harp and organ" or "lyre and panpipe". What is significant about this latter instrument is that its origins are attributed to Chinese, Grecian and Incan civilizations. The earliest Inca civilization we know about came about 1400 BC; Greece was resettled in the post-Mycenaean period, which was about 1100 to 600 BC. the historian Thucydides attributes the Doric invasion to be around 426 BC, the Mycenaean period. You should notice a relative consistency in these dates, all of which are post diluvian.

By definition, the accounts in Genesis 4, which testify of a high antediluvian civilization all speak of things commonly attributed to events happening 3000 years ago, during the first millennium BC. Additionally, since the late date of the Exodus is c.1250 BC Moses had to be writing a HISTORY, and was not creating an anachronistic statement when he wrote the about things that would be happening about 300 years in the future in three geographically diverse locations such as the Iron Age, and the pan flute.

Of course, I do not expect you to believe any of this because t seems to me that you have hardened your heart, refusing to believe anything about Bible is true. But IMHO that is a pre-condition born more from prejudice rather than knowledge: "Do this, or else I will hurt you."

In your prejudicial, pre-conditional beliefs you simply fail to recognize the MANY "second chances" that God gave to those who rebelled because their collective proclivity to express their independent free will by rebelling against the mercy of God. You see, God is more merciful than the state trooper who hands you a ticket for speeding. The signs are all posted, and you choose to drive at 72 MPH on the NYS Throughway and the signs uniformly state 65 MPH (except approaching the end in Buffalo) your stubborn rebellion earns you a fine and five points are ***essed upon your license (if you get 12 or 13 in a certain period, you loose your license for a year).

By having all those penalties in place, it is hoped that the next time you drive on the NYS Throughway you will drive slower.

But your false ****ogy makes God the "bad guy" when in the fact that He FIRST issues mercy, then he warns and warns (about 17 or more times) then He permits you to keep on doing your rebellious self-will because your heart has become habituated to sinning; then like the debt collector who places a lien on your home for non-payment of debt, God then permits you to reap the penalty of your self-willed rebellion upon your death. In both cases of accepting mercy and grace or in sinning and disgrace, YOU are in the "driver's seat" , and that is because of YOUR CHOICE exercising free will towards reward or punishment.

Your sinful self willed rejection of God may not catch up with you tomorrow, or next week, or next year, but be ***ured that eventually, just as the lien holder knows he will get his due, so also will happen to you if you stubbornly choose to reject God and his mercy. While you are alive, that chance to receive mercy still exists; then your soul must give an account before God. If you accept the mercy of God, and believe on Jesus Christ, then there will be no lien on your soul. If you do not, then the lien still will exist, and then you will have to pay it. Does it not make sense to have Someone else pay that lien on your soul? By accepting Jesus as Savior, the lien is lifted, and paid in full by Jesus.

Here it is, expressed in another manner:

2 Peter3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.