Not possible.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by theway

I guess I'm just thinking hillbilly because my first son is still on a mission in Atlanta, Ga. And my second son will be leaving in a couple days to go on his mission to Nashville, Tennessee. I keep teasing him by talking this way to him.

2 sons out at the same time? I will probably be in the same boat soon.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by theway

Did you just notice the paradox/contradiction you just created with your Faith Alone heresy as you wrote your statement?

You have NO idea whether or not that person believes that Jesus died for his sins, you went straight to claiming that he couldn't be saved because his works were evil. In other words you just tied works with salvation.

Which leads us to the next paradox. Where do we draw the line as to the degree of sin or the amount of sin, that we can use as a rule to know whether or not a person was REALLY SAVED by his faith.
Obviously you think that 2 murders and 3 rapes was too much. But how about 1 murder? Can a person commit just one murder and because he had a faith in Jesus before that, would he still be saved?

How about 1 lie? Can I commit just one lie after declaring that I was saved through Faith and still be saved?

Or does one have to be perfect; because if I am not perfect someone will claim I was not truely saved to begin with? Where is that line?

I could go on forever with the impossible paradoxes of Faith Alone, but let's just start with these.

Two points. First of all, it's highly unlikely that someone who truly believed in Jesus would intentionally murder someone (unless it were in self defense)...which, I think, was teenapenny's point.

Second, I believe one can be forgiven of any sin, including murder, if they are genuinely repentant. The key word being "repentant".

So, works are not really the issue...it is one's heart, and where they place their faith/belief/hope.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

Well, if this is true, then you are admitting that nobody can know for sure whether they are saved or not because nobody knows exactly what the rules are.

Oh, boy did you step into it. It is the LDSinc. You folks don't know all the rules. There is only one rule for the Believer in Christ. John 3:16

[theway]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Oh, boy did you step into it. It is the LDSinc. You folks don't know all the rules. There is only one rule for the Believer in Christ. John 3:16

LOL....

Do you see now Disciple what I'm up against?

Originally Posted by theway

So many Critics simply post a scripture knowing that we would interpret the scriptures differently, yet they post it anyway to make it seem like they have silenced the Mormon with scripture.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL....

Do you see now Disciple what I'm up against?

So tell me do you know all the commandments from the LDS gods you are to obey in order to gain Exaltation?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Libby

Two points. First of all, it's highly unlikely that someone who truly believed in Jesus would intentionally murder someone (unless it were in self defense)...which, I think, was teenapenny's point.

Do you really base your theology on whether something is "highly unlikely" or not???

Faith Alone is either true, or it is not. Everything in between including that which is "highly likely" and "highly unlikely" is not considered.

Originally Posted by Libby

Second, I believe one can be forgiven of any sin, including murder, if they are genuinely repentant. The key word being "repentant".

If works are not a requirement before one is saved, or after one is saved, then repentance is completely unnecessary. If one is OSAS then forgiveness is also unnecessary. After all why would I have to repent and be forgiven of some evil work, if works (either good or bad) will not change my standing with God one way or the other?

Originally Posted by Libby

So, works are not really the issue...it is one's heart, and where they place their faith/belief/hope.

Once again... You guys always mouth a belief in Faith Alone, but you guys never actually believe in it.
Otherwise please answer the questions I already asked penny.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by theway

If works are not a requirement before one is saved, or after one is saved, then repentance is completely unnecessary. If one is OSAS then forgiveness is also unnecessary. After all why would I have to repent and be forgiven if it will not change my standing with God one way or the other?

Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.

I say "highly unlikely" because I "know" that someone who has Christ abiding in them, would be very unlikely to commit that kind of sin. But, highly unlikely doesn't mean "never" (I don't like absolutes, because most things, involving humans, are never absolute)...there are always exceptions. And, we DO sin, even with Christ in us...we all do. Which means we need repentance.

As for repentance, we don't just "have to" repent...we WANT to repent. True followers of Christ are very upset, when they sin and cannot repent soon enough. We beg for Christ's forgiveness!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.

!

Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

quit you *** so you can have more time here

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

Hi Alan! Thanks for the encouragement, as always.

Work gets in the way, doesn't it? When can you retire? lol

[theway]

Originally Posted by Libby

Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.!

Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.

Originally Posted by Libby

I say "highly unlikely" because I "know" that someone who has Christ abiding in them, would be very unlikely to commit that kind of sin. But, highly unlikely doesn't mean "never" (I don't like absolutes, because most things, involving humans, are never absolute)...there are always exceptions. And, we DO sin, even with Christ in us...we all do. Which means we need repentance.!

You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.
If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.

Originally Posted by Libby

As for repentance, we don't just "have to" repent...we WANT to repent. True followers of Christ are very upset, when they sin and cannot repent soon enough. We beg for Christ's forgiveness!

To what end?
If we are saved, and nothing can take away that salvation, then repentance and forgiveness are unnecessary and wasted as it has no power to change anything. Also, since God does it all in your theories, then "your WANTS" are meaningless.
Perfection is economy! God never does anything, or requires anything, that is unneeded or unnecessary. To say otherwise is to say God is not perfect.

This is the heresy of Faith Alone or Calvinism/Evangelicalism.
It causes so many unBiblical paradoxes and contradictions to God's Words, that the real Author of this confusion is clear.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.

You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.
If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.


To what end?
If we are saved, and nothing can take away that salvation, then repentance and forgiveness are unnecessary and wasted as it has no power to change anything. Also, since God does it all in your theories, then "your WANTS" are meaningless.
Perfection is economy! God never does anything, or requires anything, that is unneeded or unnecessary. To say otherwise is to say God is not perfect.

This is the heresy of Faith Alone or Calvinism/Evangelicalism.
It causes so many unBiblical paradoxes and contradictions to God's Words, that the real Author of this confusion is clear.

Way, you have referenced scripture from James, so the key question here is: Does James aim to refute the doctrine of Paul that justification is by faith alone see Romans 4:1-5, or does James aim to refute an abuse of Paul's teaching and bring truth to the churches he was writing to? Galatians 5:6 says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." So when Paul dealt with the abuse of his doctrine of justification by faith alone, he said: It's not added works like circumcision that will win God's favor. What then? It is "faith working through love." Notice very carefully what he says. What counts with God? "Faith." But what kind of faith? Faith that "works through love." He does not say that what counts with God is "faith" plus a layer of loving works added to faith. He says that what counts with God is the kind of faith that by its nature produces love. But it is faith that gives us our right standing with God. The love that comes from it only shows that it is, in fact, real living, justifying faith. Now that, I think, is what James was trying to get across to his churches. Loveless faith is absolutely useless; and anybody that comes along and says "We are justified by faith alone, and so you don't have to be a loving person to go to heaven" is not telling the truth. So James' concern is that people have real saving faith, not counterfeit faith. And the difference is that the real faith produces loving behavior or works.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by theway

Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.

You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe in faith alone. Most Protestant Christians believe in faith alone (which simply means, works do not save us).

As for your comments, you have to understand that faith alone is in reference to salvation....not "everything", as you have discussed above. God certainly did create everything, including us, but he did not cause us to sin. I believe he gave us free will (agency, as you would say) and sin is the result of that agency.

You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.

I don't like absolutes when referring to "people"...which is what I was talking about. God is solid and eternally true.

If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.

The bolded part!!! YES, that's it, exactly, TW!!! Jesus satisfied justice once and for all! We cannot improve on that! Never Never Never!

[Libby]

Off to music cl***. I'll be back later.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe he gave us free will (agency, as you would say)

I have run into Calvinists that hate the term "Free Will" so much that they try their best to replace the term with the other term "agency" in the conversation....at times even refusing to even say the words "Free Will"...LOL

[Libby]

They're mostly okay with the word "will"...just don't add "free" to it! That is an ***ault on God's sovereignty.

LDS actually do mean "free will", when they use "agency".

[alanmolstad]

as for the topic's main question, "Do Mormons commune with Demons inside the Mormon Temple?"....

My answer to that question is that "It could be true"


Im actually not all that familiar with the day-to-day dealings of the demons, so it's not like I can say the answer is 100%"yes"

But from just what we know about the goings-on inside Mormon Temples and the about of credit and stuff given to Satan in the story that Mormonism teaches inside the temple, you got to come to the conclusion that there is a very good chance that Demons do commune with Mormon believers.

I would say that i would not be surprised to learn one day that Mormon Temples were actual centers for much of Satan's work in the world at this time.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as for the topic's main question, "Do Mormons commune with Demons inside the Mormon Temple?"....

My answer to that question is that "It could be true"


Im actually not all that familiar with the day-to-day dealings of the demons, so it's not like I can say the answer is 100%"yes"

But from just what we know about the goings-on inside Mormon Temples and the about of credit and stuff given to Satan in the story that Mormonism teaches inside the temple, you got to come to the conclusion that there is a very good chance that Demons do commune with Mormon believers.

I would say that i would not be surprised to learn one day that Mormon Temples were actual centers for much of Satan's work in the world at this time.

the more I learn of their doings, the more I believe that they do actually deal with demons inside their buildings, for they sure do that inside their teachings....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the more I learn of their doings, the more I believe that they do actually deal with demons inside their buildings, for they sure do that inside their teachings....

Yes, LDS teachings deal with demons: How to detect them, how to confound them, and how to make them go away. Thank the Lord for LDS teachings.