The apostasy

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

So God led Luther and his followers to leave the RCC, "forcing" them to start up a new church called the Lutheran church? God "inspired" the Pope to excommunicate Martin Luther?

They left the rcc RELIGION to form a 'new' CONGREGATION of THE OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Leaving the rcc is NOT leaving CHRISTIANITY, but is leaving a MANMADE RELIGION.

And CHOOSING to leave is NOT 'being forced.'

So similarly, God led the Methodists to kick out Joseph Smith from being a visitor to their Bible studies, "forcing " him to start up HIS new church, the LDS church?

Joe smith may have been forced to leave the methodist group for any of many reasons, one of which was the fact that he was a thief and a conman who apparently showed no repentance.

Nobody "forced" joey smith to invent his own new religion, the now RLDS church, from which bringum young and his group apostasized (left, walked away from).

If God allowed the perverted break-off churches (Lutheran, Baptist, etc.), the "illegitimate offspring" of the Catholic church, to survive to this very day, then why wouldn't He also allow the perverted break-off churches from the LDS church (the RLDS, Temple Lot, etc.) to also survive?

The Lutheran and Baptist churches are PARTS OF CHRIST'S church, but the mormon religion is not. God also allows the muslims (islam) to survive along with the church of satan.

God seems to allow LOTS of heretical and sinful organizations survive for a while like the mormons, muslims, and church of satan.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

They left the rcc RELIGION ...

Martin Luther was KICKED OUT because he had been given several warnings, and several chances to recant his accusations, and he refused to do so. His membership in the church that he believed to be the mother church of Christianity, was terminated.

If you had a ***, and the boss fired you for insubordination, would it be honest to tell your next employer "Yeah, I LEFT my former ***" ?? Is that how honest Christians do things?

And CHOOSING to leave is NOT 'being forced.'

"Yeah, I CHOSE to leave my former ***." Seems dishonest.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

They left the rcc RELIGION to form a 'new' CONGREGATION of THE OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Are you claiming "Christianity" had to be restored?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming "Christianity" had to be restored?

We are claiming that Joseph Smith was a disgusting pedophile and "restored" pagan sex worship!

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Apologette

We are claiming that Joseph Smith was a disgusting pedophile and "restored" pagan sex worship!

I don't worship pagan sex, nor do I worship sex of any other type, for that matter. Do any of you other Mormons worship it?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I don't worship pagan sex, nor do I worship sex of any other type, for that matter. Do any of you other Mormons worship it?

I never have either...but it sounds interesting.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Are you claiming "Christianity" had to be restored?

Originally Posted by Apologette

We are claiming that Joseph Smith was a disgusting pedophile and "restored" pagan sex worship!

How does that collate with Christian's post?

Originally Posted by Christian View Post---They left the rcc RELIGION to form a 'new' CONGREGATION of THE OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Who left the "rcc RELIGION" to form a new congregation called Christianity?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000FF][COLOR=#0000FF]They left the rcc RELIGION to form a 'new' CONGREGATION of THE OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming "Christianity" had to be restored?

Bump for Christian

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming "Christianity" had to be restored?

Apparently you cannot READ. The rcc needed (and STILL needs) to be restored to CHRISTIANITY. The reformers left the apostate rcc to return to CHRISTIANITY which had existed and operated effectively all along. They simply formed new PARTS or CONGREGATIONS of the OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY. They did not form 'new religions' at all. The disgusting pedophile joey smith DID form his own 'new religion' however, with junk that CHRIST'S church never taught, believed, or practiced.

[Christian]

erunder posted:

That makes no sense. How can a church come out of itself?

It is called APOSTASY when a group leaves the original group to form a NEW group. bringum young left the original group (the one joey smith invented) and went west to form a NEW group, the lds group in utah. duh!

You can play word-games all you want, but you CANNOT HONESTLY pretend that brigham young DIDN'T apostasize from smith's church. You can tell all the lies, make all the excuses, pretend all the pretenses you wish, but you CANNOT HONESTLY REFUTE THE TRUTH.

But I don't need to; you're playing enough games for both of us.

Of course not; I don't have to pretend at all, because reality is on my side.


No you can't, but I know you're going to continue to try.


The TRUTH is that young's group IS NO LONGER PART OF SMITH'S GROUP (the rlds) BECAUSE YOUNG APOSTASIZED (LEFT the group to form a NEW group)

You can continue to make your false claims if you wish, but don't expect anyone to believe you.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

It is called APOSTASY when a group leaves the original group to form a NEW group.

Exactly. That's why your claim is false.

bringum young left the original group (the one joey smith invented) and went west to form a NEW group, the lds group in utah. duh!

I don't know about him, but Brigham Young was selected as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--the original church that Joseph Smith organized. You are objectively wrong.

The TRUTH is that young's group IS NO LONGER PART OF SMITH'S GROUP (the rlds) BECAUSE YOUNG APOSTASIZED (LEFT the group to form a NEW group)

That's false. The LDS church was never part of the RLDS church.

You can continue to make your false claims if you wish, but don't expect anyone to believe you.

LOL!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

It is called APOSTASY when a group leaves the original group to form a NEW group. bringum young left the original group (the one joey smith invented) and went west to form a NEW group, the lds group in utah

Just continuing to repeat the same false claim, over and over, will not make it true.

Because even if you believe Joseph Smith "made up" the Mormon Church, you would also have to believe that he "made up" the rules for succession of the Presidency and who leads the Mormon Church. Those rules are clearly spelled out in the D&C by Joseph Smith whether you believe it was made up or not.
According to those rules, The Twleve becomes the Authority of the Church after the death of the President, and then it is The Twelve who elects the next President... They elected Brigham Young.

Seeing as though you also believe that the RLDS were following made-up rules by Joseph Smith as well, where are those made-up rules that gives them authority?

[Christian]

way posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianIt is called APOSTASY when a group leaves the original group to form a NEW group. bringum young left the original group (the one joey smith invented) and went west to form a NEW group, the lds group in utah

Just continuing to repeat the same false claim, over and over, will not make it true.

Now what? Will you pretend that the group bringum young left when he went west WASN'T THE ORIGINAL CHURCH that smith built?
OR
Will you instead pretend that bringum young really DIDN'T go west, leaving (apostasizing from) the group that joseph smith DID build?

Repeating myself does not make my claim become false NOR does your whine make it become true.

Bringum went west, leaving the wife, son and rest of the original group behind him (that IS called 'apostasy.).

Because even if you believe Joseph Smith "made up" the Mormon Church, you would also have to believe that he "made up" the rules for succession of the Presidency and who leads the Mormon Church. Those rules are clearly spelled out in the D&C by Joseph Smith whether you believe it was made up or not.

OR (and most likely) he simply IGNORED THE RULES (as most cultists do), conned the rest that went west to follow him, and went west, and phooey on his god!

According to those rules, The Twleve becomes the Authority of the Church after the death of the President, and then it is The Twelve who elects the next President... They elected Brigham Young.

WHICH twelve? HOW MANY of the ORIGINALS were conned by young to vote for him? Who ran the popularity contest?

Seeing as though you also believe that the RLDS were following made-up rules by Joseph Smith as well, where are those made-up rules that gives them authority?

In GOD'S sight NEITHER of the two groups has any authority to do ANYTHING FOR GOD. You don't worship the God of the Bible, you don't follow the Christ of the Bible, you follow a man-who-you-think-BECAME-a-god, and a 'spirit brother of satan' according to mormon doctrine. There is no genuine 'authority from God' in any of it.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by theway

even if you believe Joseph Smith "made up" the Mormon Church, you would also have to believe that he "made up" the rules for succession of the Presidency and who leads the Mormon Church. Those rules are clearly spelled out in the D&C by Joseph Smith whether you believe it was made up or not.
According to those rules, The Twleve becomes the Authority of the Church after the death of the President, and then it is The Twelve who elects the next President... They elected Brigham Young.

Seeing as though you also believe that the RLDS were following made-up rules by Joseph Smith as well, where are those made-up rules that gives them authority?

Good points. Plus, Joseph had a vision of the church--the real one, not the "apostate" one--fleeing to the Rocky Mountains to get away from its enemies. That kind of rules out the RLDS being the true church, since it stayed in Missouri. And it kind of supports the group led by B. Young as being the legitimate continuation of the church Joseph founded, since the group led by Young DID fulfill Joseph's prophecy, and settled in the West.

But other than those facts of history, "Christian" may have a valid theory....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Apparently you cannot READ. The rcc needed (and STILL needs) to be restored to CHRISTIANITY. The reformers left the apostate rcc to return to CHRISTIANITY

Again--why did they have to return to Christianity, if it was already present--and operating effectively?

which had existed and operated effectively all along.

If it was effectively operating--then why would they have to "return" to it? Christian--the Reformers didn't return to anything but a newly created denomination--with a whole new theology.

They simply formed new PARTS or CONGREGATIONS of the OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Why would the Reformers have to do so--if Christianity "which had existed and operated effectively all along."--is a true statement?

The Reformers did not form 'new religions' at all.

They most certainly did--it's called "sola fide"(faith alone)--and is not found but once in the Biblical text:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Not only did they form a new theology--but whole new denominations.

[Christian]

dberry posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianApparently you cannot READ. The rcc needed (and STILL needs) to be restored to CHRISTIANITY. The reformers left the apostate rcc to return to CHRISTIANITY

Again--why did they have to return to Christianity, if it was already present--and operating effectively?

Because (of course, but you don't like this) they (the reformers) had been part of the catholic religion, NOT Christianity up to that point, and they LEFT the catholic religion to join Christianity which was alive and well and doing just fine.

which had existed and operated effectively all along.

If it was effectively operating--then why would they have to "return" to it? Christian--the Reformers didn't return to anything but a newly created denomination--with a whole new theology.

Why did the Ephesians start a whole new CHRISTIAN church the first time Paul went there? OH YES! It was because there were a bunch of folks who JOINED the Way (as CHRIST'S church was called). WHENEVER there is a sizable new group of people who come to JESUS CHRIST a new CONGREGATION (the DEFINITION of "church") is created.

As for the 'whole new theology,' the only one of THOSE that has appeared is the one joey smith invented.

They simply formed new PARTS or CONGREGATIONS of the OLD RELIGION called CHRISTIANITY.

Why would the Reformers have to do so--if Christianity "which had existed and operated effectively all along."--is a true statement?

I feel like I am explaining to a five-year-old who has comprehension skills. THEY (the reformers) came to Jesus Christ and formed a new CONGREGATION (the DEFINITION of 'church'). PAUL did that in each new city he visited, Galatia, Ephesus, Phillipi, places like that where no church had existed of those folks before.

The Reformers did not form 'new religions' at all.

They most certainly did--it's called "sola fide"(faith alone)--and is not found but once in the Biblical text:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Not only did they form a new theology--but whole new denominations.

Just because YOU don't know what 'sola fide' refers to (ONLY Jesus Christ saves us. ONLY through faith. FAITH RESULTS IN WORKS, ALWAYS) Your ignorance does not make Biblical truth at all.

Sorry berry, but you have no REAL argument against normal CHRISTIANITY. Your cult is nothing more than another amongst many cults. Your heathen gods no different than the others.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

Originally Posted by theway even if you believe Joseph Smith "made up" the Mormon Church, you would also have to believe that he "made up" the rules for succession of the Presidency and who leads the Mormon Church. Those rules are clearly spelled out in the D&C by Joseph Smith whether you believe it was made up or not.
According to those rules, The Twleve becomes the Authority of the Church after the death of the President, and then it is The Twelve who elects the next President... They elected Brigham Young.

Seeing as though you also believe that the RLDS were following made-up rules by Joseph Smith as well, where are those made-up rules that gives them authority?

Good points.

Except for the fact that I demonstrated that each one of his points were false, not valid, illogical and untrue.

Plus, Joseph had a vision of the church--the real one, not the "apostate" one--fleeing to the Rocky Mountains to get away from its enemies. That kind of rules out the RLDS being the true church, since it stayed in Missouri.

EXACTLY WHERE is this supposed 'vision' supposed to have happened? And WHEN did Emma smith and joseph smith III's group become 'not smith's church?" I don't think you can find any such stuff.

Sorry, but bringum young remains an apostate leader of an apostate group.

And it kind of supports the group led by B. Young as being the legitimate continuation of the church Joseph founded, since the group led by Young DID fulfill Joseph's prophecy, and settled in the West.

But other than those facts of history, "Christian" may have a valid theory....

Old Testament priesthoods were p***ed from father to son. IF smith's religion had been valid to start with, HIS 'priesthood' would have p***ed to joseph smith III, not to bringum young by any 'popular vote.'

BIBLICAL FACTS. HISTORICAL TRUTH. Bringum young was apostate!

[Christian]

kruath whatever his name is posted:

Originally Posted by Christianphoenix posted:


Good points.

Except for the fact that I demonstrated that each one of his points were false, not valid, illogical and untrue.

Plus, Joseph had a vision of the church--the real one, not the "apostate" one--fleeing to the Rocky Mountains to get away from its enemies. That kind of rules out the RLDS being the true church, since it stayed in Missouri.

EXACTLY WHERE is this supposed 'vision' supposed to have happened? And WHEN did Emma smith and joseph smith III's group become 'not smith's church?" I don't think you can find any such stuff.

Sorry, but bringum young remains an apostate leader of an apostate group.

And it kind of supports the group led by B. Young as being the legitimate continuation of the church Joseph founded, since the group led by Young DID fulfill Joseph's prophecy, and settled in the West.

But other than those facts of history, "Christian" may have a valid theory....

Old Testament priesthoods were p***ed from father to son. IF smith's religion had been valid to start with, HIS 'priesthood' would have p***ed to joseph smith III, not to bringum young by any 'popular vote.'

BIBLICAL FACTS. HISTORICAL TRUTH. Bringum young was apostate!

I think Morefish just wants to argue about it so he can write "Bringum Young" as much as he can.

Is THAT the best you can do? Avoid dealing with the TRUTH by trying to switch subjects? JW's do that. That is a cheap way of running away from the TRUTH of course. . .

I refer to him as bringum young because he (like smith) seemed to like younguns and women other than his own wife. So he 'married' a bunch of them. I don't like letches.

So why are you afraid to deal with the FACT that young was a heretic and apostate?

[theway]

Originally Posted by KruAthApoloRelia

I think Morefish just wants to argue about it so he can write "Bringum Young" as much as he can.

LOL... You know... I actually did not see that one.

I just automatically skip though his posts without really reading any of it, knowing it's mostly full of nonsensical, illogical, unbiblical, untruths. So can you really fault me for not seeing it?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by KruAthApoloRelia

I think Morefish just wants to argue about it so he can write "Bringum Young" as much as he can.

Maybe he will someday realize that such juvenile antics actually result in netting LESS fish.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Maybe he will someday realize that such juvenile antics actually result in netting LESS fish.

And having LESS FAITH in joey smith or other heretics is a GOOD thing, isn't it?

The Lord will call whatever 'fish' HE calls. If you lose faith in the heretics does NOT necessarily mean you find Jesus. It just means you lose faith in the heretics.

[Christian]

STILL no complete apostasy or loss of authority from God's church. . .ever.

Sorry, but joey smith lied.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

And having LESS FAITH in joey smith or other heretics is a GOOD thing, isn't it?

The Lord will call whatever 'fish' HE calls. If you lose faith in the heretics does NOT necessarily mean you find Jesus. It just means you lose faith in the heretics.

If true... Then where is my incentive to lose faith in the heretics???

I don't think you thought that one through very well.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by theway

If true... Then where is my incentive to lose faith in the heretics???
I don't think you thought that one through very well.

Plus, Lessfish wants us to have less faith in heretics. To the church that excommunicated Martin Luther for heresy/apostasy, Luther was a heretic. So if we have less faith in Luther's teachings, we are having less faith in a heretic, which then should make Lessfish happy, right?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Plus, Lessfish wants us to have less faith in heretics. To the church that excommunicated Martin Luther for heresy/apostasy, Luther was a heretic. So if we have less faith in Luther's teachings, we are having less faith in a heretic, which then should make Lessfish happy, right?

AntiMormons contradict themselves all too easily.... Is like shooting morefish is a barrel.