There are no Obedient LDS

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.
.

so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

those can happen sometimes. so--how did you end up in this forum? what is your story?

I was invited and thought I would visit.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Ok....if God doesn't give everyone grace, and we have nothing to do with receiving grace...who gets grace?

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?

That is not how it works. First

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Second: Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

God's grace is freely given by God to whom he chooses.

Romans 9:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Did you miss the point of God being the creator of all things?

No.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so if you have children--do you see yourself as their creator and God has nothing to do with it? That's one of the more amazing things I have ever heard.

I procreated my children. God put in place the process for that to happen.

Here is evidence to support my position.

• In Genesis 2:7, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, causing Adam to become a “living soul.” Scripture nowhere records God performing this action again.
• Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). Adam’s descendants seem to be “living souls” without God breathing into them.
• Genesis 2:2-3 seems to indicate that God ceased His creative work.
• Adam's sin affects all men – both physically and spiritually – this makes sense if the body and soul both come from the parents.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I think this best describes what I am trying to say, see below. The resurrection is not a good thing for everyone, some to everlasting life and others to eternal punishment.
Grace is not part of the resurrection experience for those heading to eternal punishment.

Daniel 12:2New King James Version (NKJV)

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

This states that God is the judge and knows how to strike that balance between justice and mercy. It further confirms that we do not dictate to God how He should run things.

And I agree....God is our judge and we shouldn't tell him what to do

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

This is the exact same argument I have seen another poster use-using the exact same verses even. I am thinking you must be a Calvinist or at least follow some of their thinking.

This same point caused a great argument between the evangelicals on this site. Jill erased all of those threads (or maybe moved them to another forum.)

I guess the point is that there a many Christians who disagree with your take--

which leads back to this question--how do you know when you are interpreting the Bible correctly--as especially this point will bring many evangelicals to disagree.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

No.




I procreated my children. God put in place the process for that to happen.

Here is evidence to support my position.

[LIST][*]In Genesis 2:7, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, causing Adam to become a “living soul.” Scripture nowhere records God performing this action again.

So, do you believe you created your children's spirits?

and, just thought you might find this interesting:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So--once again, back to the question--how do you know whether or not your interpretation is correct?-- as there are many (even within the evangelicals) who would disagree with you.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, do you believe you created your children's spirits?

No. I procreated my children's spirits.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

and, just thought you might find this interesting:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost, fifty days after P***over.

Acts 2New King James Version (NKJV)

Coming of the Holy Spirit
2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Crowd’s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the mul***ude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

Peter’s Sermon
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to p*** in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to p***
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’[b]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So--once again, back to the question--how do you know whether or not your interpretation is correct?-- as there are many (even within the evangelicals) who would disagree with you.

First, I have the Holy Spirit. Second, I use a solid hermeneutic. Third, there is no other option that makes sense.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

This states that God is the judge and knows how to strike that balance between justice and mercy. It further confirms that we do not dictate to God how He should run things.

And I agree....God is our judge and we shouldn't tell him what to do

You completely misunderstand this. I take the blame. I left out verse 11.

Romans 9:11New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Here, read this part again, "then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

This is the exact same argument I have seen another poster use-using the exact same verses even. I am thinking you must be a Calvinist or at least follow some of their thinking.

This same point caused a great argument between the evangelicals on this site. Jill erased all of those threads (or maybe moved them to another forum.)

I guess the point is that there a many Christians who disagree with your take--

which leads back to this question--how do you know when you are interpreting the Bible correctly--as especially this point will bring many evangelicals to disagree.

I am Reformed. My interpretation is based on a solid hermeneutic. I can explain what I believe, how I believe, and how I came to that conclusion. We are often accused of being arrogant because we tend to have answers to just about everything and am confident of that answer.

But I am honest about what I am not sure of and am able to give various perspectives due to my broad knowledge and experiences.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

I am Reformed. My interpretation is based on a solid hermeneutic. I can explain what I believe, how I believe, and how I came to that conclusion. We are often accused of being arrogant because we tend to have answers to just about everything and am confident of that answer.

But I am honest about what I am not sure of and am able to give various perspectives due to my broad knowledge and experiences.

I would disagree with your ***essment--that you use "solid ermeneutic"---as there are many scriptures that disagree with your conclusions. The other question is--which do you weigh more heavily, what you learn via the Holy Spirit versus what you learn by "solid hermeneutic"?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

You completely misunderstand this. I take the blame. I left out verse 11.

Romans 9:11New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Here, read this part again, "then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

The point of using the twins as an example, is to show that nobody is en***led to an automatic birthright of salvation just because of their bloodline or because of what THEY believe they have a right to. That in the end, it is up to God, and nobody can "will" nor "run", meaning...nobody can tell God how to judge.


I know what I believe this says, but I'm interested in how you interpret it, because I'm not getting an answer from you.

Do you believe God has pre-picked certain people to be chosen for salvation and the rest have no chance no matter what? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but you haven't clarified it, so if I'm wrong, please clarify, thanks.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

The point of using the twins as an example, is to show that nobody is en***led to an automatic birthright of salvation just because of their bloodline or because of what THEY believe they have a right to. That in the end, it is up to God, and nobody can "will" nor "run", meaning...nobody can tell God how to judge.


I know what I believe this says, but I'm interested in how you interpret it, because I'm not getting an answer from you.

Do you believe God has pre-picked certain people to be chosen for salvation and the rest have no chance no matter what? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but you haven't clarified it, so if I'm wrong, please clarify, thanks.

I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I would disagree with your ***essment--that you use "solid ermeneutic"---as there are many scriptures that disagree with your conclusions. The other question is--which do you weigh more heavily, what you learn via the Holy Spirit versus what you learn by "solid hermeneutic"?

Then prove me wrong... The problem with groups like yours is that you ignore one scripture and embrace another. The method I use reconciles those differing scriptures.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Then prove me wrong... The problem with groups like yours is that you ignore one scripture and embrace another. The method I use reconciles those differing scriptures.

I see that is what you are doing, ignoring other scriptures to believe a point.

Your first wrong ***umption:

I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

Proof:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

No, you did not make it clear or state anywhere that those who are not chosen are "not interested"

Or I wouldn't have asked

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?


so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

God doesn't give grace to the Devil. God foreknows those who are His - read the first chapter of Ephesians.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I see that is what you are doing, ignoring other scriptures to believe a point.

Your first wrong ***umption:

Proof:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Proof:

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

This verse is not for unbelievers. It is for people who are already believers. James wrote is letter to believers and for believers. If you use this verse to get people to pray as to whether the LDS religion is true, you are mis-using this verse...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

Who fear Him and WORKS righteousness...

God knows all. He can see all points in time....He knows what everyone will do...He is omniscient. Because of this, He knows which people will accept Him, and which won't. It doesn't mean he actually chose them to do so....it simply means He already knew that they would. The point is, He still treats ALL fairly, and those who reject Him, still have the same fair opportunity to do so as anyone else. It is still up to the individual to make the choices that lead them to accepting Him or rejecting Him. So He simply knows which people will respect Him and WORK righteousness....but they still have to do so, as this scripture states.

Prior to them rejecting Him....He treated them the same as anyone else.

Jesus Christ atoned for ALL mankind, correct?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

This verse is not for unbelievers. It is for people who are already believers. James wrote is letter to believers and for believers. If you use this verse to get people to pray as to whether the LDS religion is true, you are mis-using this verse...

Yes, and those who are seeking further truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ from The Father clearly already are believers...or they wouldn't be asking God expecting an answer unless they have faith....because they believe.

I would think that to be obvious. An atheist's prayers would be meaningless because they wouldn't be expecting an answer, so they would not receive one.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

Wait, when I stated that we must follow Christ and love him with our heart, might, and strength--you stated that this was "earning" your way to heaven. Now you qualify that whoever fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him? Boy, that sounds like you are making my point for me.

Okay, I am curious what you believe it means to "fear him"??

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?


so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

You have some gall to talk about Mormons obeying commandments, when they can't even obey the first. You have other gods - you are lost in idolatry.