What is the 'gospel' of the LDS church?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAll who have faith in Christ are adopted into the House of Israel, and become the seed of Abraham:

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

Originally Posted by hogan60

is your faith in Christ? Are you sure? or is it in after all you can do?

Could you explain for us what the difference is in enduring to the end--after all we can do?


Matthew 10:22--King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

dberrie I went over much of this in previous posts. Quoting verses back and forth doesn't work here because you merely repeat the teachings of mormonism ...

I'm glad you see the Biblical scriptures above as the "teachings of mormonism"--you are correct--they match the LDS gospel well.

The question is--how do you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

cultic people take what is true, or rather a portion of what is true, and misapply it to their own ideas then claim to be following the Bible. They are not but merely use bits and pieces of the truth to trap unwary people and unknowledgable believers into their web of lies and deceit.

Berry is an EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of that.
You have described the mormons to a T

[hogan60]

dberrie, What exactly did Abraham do for God to declare him righteous (justified)? Abraham lived long before Moses. So there was no 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws. God credited to Abraham righteousness before he was circumcised. It was also before he tried to sacrifice Issac. There was certainly no church to join or church laws, commandments and ordinances to obey. So what was it that Abraham did? He believed God! That's all that was expected of the OT people: to believe in God and believe what God said. Abraham chose to leave his people who were idolaters and polytheistic They believed in the existence of gods. Abraham believed in the One True God and God then declared Abraham as righteous.

How does all this compare with mormonism and the myriad of rules, laws, commandments and ordinances?

Yes, God gave Abraham some commandments which were meant for him alone. What were those commands? To leave his country and people. Gen. 12:1 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee."

Another command was to sacrifice Issac. These are 2 examples of the commands that God gave to him and him alone. Abraham obeyed Him, but he was already saved (justified). If God speaks to you and tells you to do something then its wise to do it. But it has nothing to do with keeping the Commandments or laws.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Christian

Berry is an EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of that.
You have described the mormons to a T

Thank you. One thing that believers do not understand is how a con works.A con artist cannot get money from people if he only uses lies. his story falls apart quicker than anything. So to make a good con, the con artist must use bits and pieces of the truth in order to fool people. he won't fool everyone but enough unwary ones to be successful. evil works the same way with cults. it allows just enough truth to enter into the false words of the cults in order to make the false religion appealing and seem to be of the bible. that is why so many people get caught up in cults. they are convinced by the presence of the truth and ignore the lies.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, What exactly did Abraham do for God to declare him righteous (justified)? Abraham lived long before Moses. So there was no 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws.

What is your evidence Abraham did not have the ten commandments?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?---https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/did-abraham-keep-the-same


Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today.
But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham’s obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: “Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws” (NIV).

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence Abraham did not have the ten commandments?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?---https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/did-abraham-keep-the-same


Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today.
But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham’s obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: “Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws” (NIV).

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel.

I am familiar with the link you gave. Its from the church of God faith. For every website that agrees with them, there are hundreds more that don't. This is why I never give links, but rather the Holy Bible as the only source for Truth.

God always has moral standards. Throughout the Bible God gave specific commands to people. God’s specific commandments for one person or people at one particular time are not always exactly the same as for others. We are not required to obey the commands God gave Adam. The commandment God gave Noah, to build an ark. The commandment he gave Abraham, to kill his son as a human sacrifice, (If Abraham obeyed the law of Moses, he would have been unfaithful, because he would have refused to sacrifice his son because 'thou shall not murder' is one of the 10 Commandments.)


What commands did God give to Abraham? To leave Ur in Gen.12. That's a commandment. He gave him the law of circumcision in Gen.21:4. Abraham obeyed God to circumcise his son as God commanded. These and other commands were commandments that Gen.26 is referring to.

dberrie, does that mean Christians today are to obey the law of circumcision?

Deut.5: 3 Moses is speaking: "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us." No one had to obey this until their generation. This was hundreds of years after Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.


Gal 3:17 tells us the laws were only given to Israel for a distinct period of time, they were never made permanent. The law came 430 years after the covenant made with Abraham, and it continued to be in effect until the seed should come, who is Christ. The law came through Moses and grace and truth through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:24-26 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

I am familiar with the link you gave. Its from the church of God faith. For every website that agrees with them, there are hundreds more that don't. This is why I never give links, but rather the Holy Bible as the only source for Truth.

Hi Hogan:

Then let's stick with the Biblical text:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--God extending His salvation grace to and through Abraham because of his obedience to the laws, commandments, and statutes of God--is a violation of faith alone theology--regardless of what one believes they consisted of.

Very friendly to LDS theology.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Then let's stick with the Biblical text:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--God extending His salvation grace to and through Abraham because of his obedience to the laws, commandments, and statutes of God--is a violation of faith alone theology--regardless of what one believes they consisted of.

Very friendly to LDS theology.

You didn't address anything I wrote. I did indeed stick with the Biblical text. Dberrie, do you even read my posts in its entirety?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Then let's stick with the Biblical text:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--God extending His salvation grace to and through Abraham because of his obedience to the laws, commandments, and statutes of God--is a violation of faith alone theology--regardless of what one believes they consisted of.

Very friendly to LDS theology.

Duplicate post

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

You didn't address anything I wrote. I did indeed stick with the Biblical text. Dberrie, do you even read my posts in its entirety?

Yes--but I stick with the point--which is--God extended His salvational grace to Abraham because of his obedience:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--if that is true, then faith alone theology is false--end of story, IMO.

That is the point I am attempting to point out. You might want to sidestep that, and one could easily see why.

The fact is--the faith alone share precious little with the Biblical text.

What is found in the Biblical text--is also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go. Again--that is the theme I would like to stick with. The faith alone seem unwilling to discuss the scriptures themselves, electing rather--to talk about points which have nothing to do with the Biblical text, and it's doctrines.

Let's stick with the Biblical text--I believe we will get closer to God's truths in using that approach.

Care to address the previously posted scriptures?

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes--but I stick with the point--which is--God extended His salvational grace to Abraham because of his obedience:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--if that is true, then faith alone theology is false--end of story, IMO.

That is the point I am attempting to point out. You might want to sidestep that, and one could easily see why.

The fact is--the faith alone share precious little with the Biblical text.

What is found in the Biblical text--is also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go. Again--that is the theme I would like to stick with. The faith alone seem unwilling to discuss the scriptures themselves, electing rather--to talk about points which have nothing to do with the Biblical text, and it's doctrines.

Let's stick with the Biblical text--I believe we will get closer to God's truths in using that approach.

Care to address the previously posted scriptures?

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

As for the lds theology and the Biblical text, dberrie you would have to provide first of all, irrefutable proof that the gospel was completely lost from the earth. I asked for that evidence in a previous post which you didn't address. If you cannot show concrete proof, then there's is no need for the lds church because Christ never allowed His gospel to be lost.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

As for the lds theology and the Biblical text, dberrie you would have to provide first of all, irrefutable proof that the gospel was completely lost from the earth. I asked for that evidence in a previous post which you didn't address. If you cannot show concrete proof, then there's is no need for the lds church because Christ never allowed His gospel to be lost.

Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19.This was OT. Jesus and the young ruler were still under law. They were expected to obey the commandments. Christ fulfilled all of it at the cross. He gave us 2 commandments which sums them all: Love God and love your neighbor. Theoretically, there are two ways to look at concerning how to get to heaven. One way is to live a perfect life (obeying all of God’s laws perfectly everyday all the time, which is impossible.) The other way (the only way) is to trust the Saviour who came to save wicked sinners

Dberrie, we are under grace now. No more law, commandment keeping is required. It was never meant to be permanent. Yes, we should seek to please God with right living, but that's not how one gets saved. Only Jesus Christ saves.

You are still mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. You cannot mix law and grace.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19..

a far better telling of the same story is found at Mark 10

there you will find that when the guy asks Jesus what must he 'do" to have eternal life?
The use of the word "do" points us to the understanding that the guy wanted to know what "work" he could perform that would count and earn himself salvation?
So he was clearly talking about a 'works salvation" concept, where you do some type of work and if you do it correctly it will guarantee your salvation.

Jesus points to the common understanding of the role of the Law in the life of a Jew....the thinking at the time was that if you do the law, keep it fully and never break it, that this leads to life.

Jesus points to this Law ...and without hesitation the man answers that he has always kept the law, even from when he was a little biy.

This points us to the idea that the man had that he had done all that he could do...he had been leading a life that had kept all the laws that Jesus pointed to.
Thus the hope the guy had that all his work at keeping the law had guaranteed himself the eternal life that everyone always taught the keeping the Law gave to man..


and then Jesus overturns the whole apple cart with the words..."One thing you lack..."

With these words Jesus makes moot the whole idea that keeping the law gave life
Jesus does not disagree with the man's statement about keeping the law...Jesus does not say that the Guy was wrong...or that the guy had failed to keep some hidden part of the law...

Rather Jesus points out that works dont save anyone....never did, and never could..

What Jesus says is in full agreement with what he said to the question about working the "works of God"?
Jesus answers at John 6:29 :"This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."




The only work required is to "believe"...
Faith is all that matters with God...

This is why we learn that we are only saved by Grace though works?....NO!...we are only saved by Grace though FAITH!


This is why Jesus tells the man that even after living a life in full compliance with the Law, you still are not saved....for works dont save, faith is what Grace works though not works.

and Jesus then tells the man to "follow me" and this is therefore the only path we walk to receive salvation.


Its not a path of keeping laws, or doing works...its a path we walk in faith!




and this is why the Bible tells us "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.



So the person that does not do works but has only trusted God, their FAITH is all that counts!!!!!!!!!!

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

a far better telling of the same story is found at Mark 10

there you will find that when the guy asks Jesus what must he 'do" to have eternal life?
The use of the word "do" points us to the understanding that the guy wanted to know what "work" he could perform that would count and earn himself salvation?
So he was clearly talking about a 'works salvation" concept, where you do some type of work and if you do it correctly it will guarantee your salvation.

Jesus points to the common understanding of the role of the Law in the life of a Jew....the thinking at the time was that if you do the law, keep it fully and never break it, that this leads to life.

Jesus points to this Law ...and without hesitation the man answers that he has always kept the law, even from when he was a little biy.

This points us to the idea that the man had that he had done all that he could do...he had been leading a life that had kept all the laws that Jesus pointed to.
Thus the hope the guy had that all his work at keeping the law had guaranteed himself the eternal life that everyone always taught the keeping the Law gave to man..


and then Jesus overturns the whole apple cart with the words..."One thing you lack..."

With these words Jesus makes moot the whole idea that keeping the law gave life
Jesus does not disagree with the man's statement about keeping the law...Jesus does not say that the Guy was wrong...or that the guy had failed to keep some hidden part of the law...

Rather Jesus points out that works dont save anyone....never did, and never could..

What Jesus says is in full agreement with what he said to the question about working the "works of God"?
Jesus answers at John 6:29 :"This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."




The only work required is to "believe"...
Faith is all that matters with God...

This is why we learn that we are only saved by Grace though works?....NO!...we are only saved by Grace though FAITH!


This is why Jesus tells the man that even after living a life in full compliance with the Law, you still are not saved....for works dont save, faith is what Grace works though not works.

and Jesus then tells the man to "follow me" and this is therefore the only path we walk to receive salvation.


Its not a path of keeping laws, or doing works...its a path we walk in faith!

Alan, I could not have said it any better myself. Great post!

[alanmolstad]

but someone might say, (insert child's whinny voice here) "But Alan faith without works is dead!"

ahh, yet the answer to that from the Bible is that Faith is thee only work that counts!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Alan, I could not have said it any better myself. Great post!

Mormonism is not really my field of study and outreach...
But back in my Bible School days I had to go over this same Bible story so I remembered a few things I have learned.

its a common story to study in a Bible study cl*** as the same story is recorded in several different places and so you can draw out more and more meanings from the conversation Jesus has.
It also is a story that connects well with other conversations on the same topic Jesus had with others...

[alanmolstad]

for a very good example of what im talking about, here you go

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19.This was OT.

Hi Hogan:

Matthew is found in the Biblical NT. Jesus taught things pertaining to the NT covenant--even if they were under the Law. Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--something the OT law could not bring. As Paul stated--if the OT was capable of eternal life--then the NT covenant would not be necessary.

In my Jesus and the young ruler were still under law. They were expected to obey the commandments.

How is that any different than the NT expectations?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Matthew is found in the Biblical NT. Jesus taught things pertaining to the NT covenant--even if they were under the Law. Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--something the OT law could not bring. As Paul stated--if the OT was capable of eternal life--then the NT covenant would not be necessary.



How is that any different than the NT expectations?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Yes, Matthew is in the Biblical NT. But Matthew was looking back on the earthy ministry of Jesus. He was recounting the 3 years he and the other disciples spent with Jesus. The New Testament gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross and shed His blood. What Jesus taught was for the nation of Israel. He never taught Gentiles. Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. There was no gospel of grace until Paul. Because the Jews continued to reject Christ as Messiah, God turned to the Gentiles and Paul was chosen to preach to them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Yes, Matthew is in the Biblical NT. But Matthew was looking back on the earthy ministry of Jesus. He was recounting the 3 years he and the other disciples spent with Jesus. The New Testament gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross and shed His blood.

Hi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:


Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:


Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this. So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles. But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

Where do we see Mark preaching the death, burial and resurrection as the gospel? It was repent and be baptized, not Christ's shed blood for the forgiveness of sins.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:


Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this. So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles. But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

[Christian]

Hogan posted:

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this.

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

So the Father never granted faith to them. Faith DOES come by hearing the Word of God. You CANNOT simply willy-nilly CHOOSE to come to Jesus. The FATHER HAS TO GRANT IT FIRST.

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Obviously God had not called or chosen them.

So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles.

All part of God's ORIGINAL PLAN.

God chose us CHRISTIANS before the beginning of the world

But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

FROM PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS:

1 Cor 15:1-8
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.


3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.


AND EXACTLY WHERE IN THIS GOSPEL (THE GOOD NEWS) are your temples, ordinances, false promises of godhood, etc etc etc?



Where do we see Mark preaching the death, burial and resurrection as the gospel? It was repent and be baptized, not Christ's shed blood for the forgiveness of sins.

But again IT ALL DEPENDS ON HAVING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Mark NEVER SAYS 'instead of' the death, burial, and resurrection. MARK NEVER DEFINES THE GOSPEL AT ALL, NEVER CALLING IT repent or be baptized. God does NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF

To the Non-believer that God has NOT chosen:
1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

For we who are CHRISTIANS:

Rom 4:5-8
...to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJ


YOUR WORKS, WHAT YOU DO does not save you. ONLY JESUS SAVES YOU, THROUGH FAITH IN HIM. Your repentance, baptism, temple work, ***hing, 'keeping ordinances' or inviting your bishop to dinner do NOTHING towards curry favor with God.

FAITH counts as righteousness with GOD. YOUR filthy deeds do nothing.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by hogan60

In Gal 5:19-21 Paul is talking about unbelievers who live a sinful lifestyle. They cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Paul uses the word they, not us.

"they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." He wasn't referring to himself or believers.

Then in verses 22, 23 we see the flip side. the lifestyle of the Believer.

"22: " But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance.."

Even if believers sin, we have forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ

EXCELLENT POST. Verse 22 starts with 'BUT' which is a conjunction of CONTRASTING SOMETHING WITH WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.

We don't usually agree, but in this case we do.