'apostles' of your little mormon religion, NOT OF JESUS CHRIST. NOT ONE WORD FROM GOD makes yours into His. Just the claims of your conman, liar, adulterer, peepstone gazer, tries to shoot his way out of jail, false prophet.
'apostles' of your little mormon religion, NOT OF JESUS CHRIST. NOT ONE WORD FROM GOD makes yours into His. Just the claims of your conman, liar, adulterer, peepstone gazer, tries to shoot his way out of jail, false prophet.
Of course they're apostles of Jesus Christ. But even if you don't believe that, our church has apostles (this is an objective fact), and Christ's original church had apostles (also an objective fact). Yours does not (another objective fact).
A couple MORE objective facts:
1) of the 150+ OTHER smith-church break-offs, MOST of them have (or had) apostles too. Why should we believe YOUR CULT and not theirs?
2) JESUS CHRIST (the REAL One, not the fake "spirit-brother-of-satan 'christ' that joey smith invented) NEVER ONCE SAID that there would be any such 'office of apostle' required in succeeding generations of HIS CHURCH.
3) IF such 'apostles' were required, the Apostle JOHN had PLENTY OF TIME to make them. He did not. God did NOT plan HIS church to have mortal apostles in the generations that came after JOHN.
4) Just because joey smith invited friends to be his 'apostles' does NOT MAKE THEM APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST.
5) You CANNOT find ANY connection from YOUR 'apostles' to to the Apostles that Jesus chose, any more than the other 150 or so "latter-day-saints' groups from joey smith's religion could find any connections from THEIRS to the Apostles Jesus Christ chose.
OBJECTIVE FACTS. You seem to like objective facts. So PROVE OBJECTIVELY that ANY of my statements above are false. I don't think you can, since EVERY ONE OF THEM IS TRUE.
Joey smith's religion(s) are victims of the imaginations of joey smith. They are NOT from God.
A couple MORE objective facts:
1) of the 150+ OTHER smith-church break-offs, MOST of them have (or had) apostles too. Why should we believe YOUR CULT and not theirs?
2) JESUS CHRIST (the REAL One, not the fake "spirit-brother-of-satan 'christ' that joey smith invented) NEVER ONCE SAID that there would be any such 'office of apostle' required in succeeding generations of HIS CHURCH.
3) IF such 'apostles' were required, the Apostle JOHN had PLENTY OF TIME to make them. He did not. God did NOT plan HIS church to have mortal apostles in the generations that came after JOHN.
4) Just because joey smith invited friends to be his 'apostles' does NOT MAKE THEM APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST.
5) You CANNOT find ANY connection from YOUR 'apostles' to to the Apostles that Jesus chose, any more than the other 150 or so "latter-day-saints' groups from joey smith's religion could find any connections from THEIRS to the Apostles Jesus Christ chose.
OBJECTIVE FACTS. You seem to like objective facts. So PROVE OBJECTIVELY that ANY of my statements above are false. I don't think you can, since EVERY ONE OF THEM IS TRUE.
Joey smith's religion(s) are victims of the imaginations of joey smith. They are NOT from God.
So? They can have their apostles if they want. That does not change the objective fact that our church has apostles, just like the original church did.
This not an objective fact until you prove it.2) JESUS CHRIST (the REAL One, not the fake "spirit-brother-of-satan 'christ' that joey smith invented) NEVER ONCE SAID that there would be any such 'office of apostle' required in succeeding generations of HIS CHURCH.
This is not an objective fact until you prove it.3) IF such 'apostles' were required, the Apostle JOHN had PLENTY OF TIME to make them. He did not. God did NOT plan HIS church to have mortal apostles in the generations that came after JOHN.
Well, duh. It's because they were ordained to be apostles by those who had authority from Jesus Christ that makes them apostles of Jesus Christ.4) Just because joey smith invited friends to be his 'apostles' does NOT MAKE THEM APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST.
This is not an objective fact until you prove it. What connection do you imagine is required to exist?5) You CANNOT find ANY connection from YOUR 'apostles' to to the Apostles that Jesus chose, any more than the other 150 or so "latter-day-saints' groups from joey smith's religion could find any connections from THEIRS to the Apostles Jesus Christ chose.
This is called "shifting the burden of proof." It's your responsibility to back up your own claims.So PROVE OBJECTIVELY that ANY of my statements above are false.
Prove it.I don't think you can, since EVERY ONE OF THEM IS TRUE. Joey smith's religion(s) are victims of the imaginations of joey smith. They are NOT from God.
Is there a general reason that the Mormons tend to split-off this way?
Is it over the question of "sex and money?,
who get it? and who gives it up?
Papias: He was a hearer of the Apostle John, and was on terms of intimate intercourse with many who had known the Lord and His apostles. From these he gathered the floating traditions in regard to the sayings of our Lord, and wove them into a production divided into five books. This work does not seem to have been confined to an exposition of the sayings of Christ, but to have contained much historical information.NOT ONE CHRISTIAN WRITING ANYWHERE from the first century teaches the 'mormon-specific' teaching of joey smith's, that you may go to any of 'three degrees of' anything at all. Joey smith made that all up.
You have nothing from GOD that says otherwise. ALL you have is the word of your peepstone gazer, thief, adulterer, conman who tried to shoot his way out of jail, false 'prophet.'Originally Posted by theway View Post
Three Degrees of Glory.
Papias :
As the presbyters say, then15 those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shah enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city;16 for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second cl*** will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions:”
LOL...
Now you are moving the goalposts because your original challenge has been debunked.
You only stated that I needed to show only "ONE THING" that was restored.... I did that! Now you are claiming it has to be something from a First Century Christian...
It appears you never learn your lesson.
Very well then, here it is from First Century Christians...
1 Cor. 15:40-42
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
John14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
You left out this one:
Acts 9:5
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
NKJV
See? ANYONE can add unrelated p***ages to a post.
When you try to 'connect' two p***ages like the two you chose that are not about the same subject, that is all you are doing. Just like you did.
Since joey smith supposedly 'restored' stuff from the original church that was supposedly 'lost,' the goalposts remain in exactly the same spots.
Joey INVENTED his junk, including his 3 'glories,' quite often by trying to change the meanings of words such as "glories."
Sorry bubba, but the junk doesn't fit the BIBLE'S ACCOUNTS.
The 'glories' of the celestial bodies are NOT CONSIDERED PLACES YOU WOULD EVER LIVE. The word "glory" is an ADJECTIVE, not a noun.
But then joey smith never was very smart, was he?
The REAL GLORY OF CHRIST is much brighter than that!
The idea that the 3 degrees of beauty should be places where anyone would ever live was INVENTED by joey smith.
Christ's church (CHRISTIANS) have never believed his invention. . .ever.
Joey didn't 'restore' anything. . .he merely INVENTED such garbage as his religion teaches.
Papias: He was a hearer of the Apostle John, and was on terms of intimate intercourse with many who had known the Lord and His apostles. From these he gathered the floating traditions in regard to the sayings of our Lord, and wove them into a production divided into five books. This work does not seem to have been confined to an exposition of the sayings of Christ, but to have contained much historical information.
Johan Periwinkel III: He was a hearer of Jesus Christ and on terms of intimate with many other CHRISTIANS stated:
"The very idea that anyone LIVES in the glory of the sun, moon, or stars is beyond stupid."
You cannot find ONE WHOLE SENTENCE IN THE BIBLE that requires 'living mortal apostles' of JESUS to be present in every generation of the church UNLESS you ALSO HAVE A 'living mortal jesus' to go along with them.
NOTHING connecting the buddies of joe smith to the REAL Apostles of Jesus Christ. Just the word of joe smith, whom you must idolize.
berry posted:
1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Nobody believed in baptism for the dead,
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
WHO did that? Those who did NOT believe in the resurrection of the dead. . .NON CHRISTIANS, NOT CHRIST'S CHURCH
1 Corinthians 15:40---King James Version (KJV)
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
PLEASE UNDERLINE where it says anyone would go there. Please UNDERLINE where 'glory' means a PLACE anywhere. Oh, your UNDERLINE IS BROKEN?
Question: "What were the Urim and Thummim?"
Answer: The Urim ("lights") and Thummim ("perfections") were gemstones that were carried by the high priest of Israel on the ephod / priestly garments. They were used by the high priest to determine God's will in some situations. Some propose that God would cause the Urim and Thummim to light up in varying patterns to reveal His decision. Others propose that the Urim and Thummim were kept in a pouch and were engraved with symbols identifying yes / no and true / false.
It is unclear whether the Urim and Thummim were on, by, or in the high priest's ephod. No one knows the precise nature of the Urim and Thummim or exactly how they were used. The Bible simply does not give us enough information. References to the Urim and Thummim are rare in the Bible. They are first mentioned in the description of the breastplate of judgment (Exodus 28:30; Leviticus 8:8). When Joshua succeeded Moses as leader over Israel, he was to receive answers from God by means of the Urim through Eleazar the high priest (Numbers 27:21). The Urim and Thummim are next mentioned in Moses' dying blessing upon Levi (Deuteronomy 33:8). The following Scriptures likely also speak of the Urim and Thummim: Joshua 7:14-18;
NOTHING about the Urim or Thummim in the whole p***age. You are smoking the wrong stuff.
1 Samuel 14:37-45;
Nope, none of either there either. You are grasping at straws.
and 2 Samuel 21:1.
none of either there either. You are apparently getting desperate.
But joe smith thought the urim and thummim was a dirty old rock stuck in his hat, right?
How gullible ARE YOU?
Last edited by Christian; 08-28-2017 at 04:13 PM.
All of them? I didn't know that, but okay.
Yes, but the real ones chosen by Jesus are not.
Of course it did.
Prove it.
That's true, because it's a made-up anti-Mormon rule. I see no indication in the New Testament that the apostles became illegitimate as soon as Jesus ascended.
No, I can't come up with a fake Jesus. That's why I follow the real one.
You cannot, you clearly don't even KNOW HIM.
runder posted:
Originally Posted by Christian Speaking of the mormon'apostles'),
Why should we believe YOURS and not THEIRS were chosen by Jesus?
I don't care what you believe. However, even if one of the splinter groups had the real apostles, that still precludes your cult from being Christ's church.
And you think THAT is being an 'apologist?'
Col 4:6
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
NKJV
You don't care to obey GOD'S WORD, the BIBLE, huh.
You ***ume that I can't. Apostles were chosen after the original 12. You should really read the New Testament sometimeThen why can't you find CHAPTER AND VERSE where GOD ever said so?
I have read all of it several times through, done exegetical studies of most of the books in it. IF YOU COULD SOMEHOW 'CONNECT' the cronies of joe smith who were his first 12, then the elected 'good old boys' that followed, to the Apostles of the Bible, you would know they are NOT the same kind of people.
Yeah, that's what I thought. You're all talk, no substance
Speak for (and OF) yourself. . .
False.Since Jesus Christ is part of the SAME SENTENCE and SAME SUBJECT, then you MUST (according to your own misinterpretation of this p***age) have a LIVE AND PHYSICALLY MORTAL 'jesus' hiding in your cellar somewhere
PROVE IT. You cannot of course. You are all talk, no substance, just as you said.
You want to 'cherry-pick' tiny partial sentences, pretend they mean junk the original writers did in not any mean have anything to do with, and try to force it into your own private paradigm. Reasoned discourse is beyond your capabilities, apparently. Understanding of the Bible (the only REAL scriptures) is beyond you.
the term "Anti-Mormon or in this case anti-LDS" is not allowed here.
hristian posted:
And you think THAT is being an 'apologist?'You are all talk, no substance, just as you said.
You want to 'cherry-pick' tiny partial sentences, pretend they mean junk the original writers did in not any mean have anything to do with, and try to force it into your own private paradigm. Reasoned discourse is beyond your capabilities, apparently. Understanding of the Bible (the only REAL scriptures) is beyond you.
Col 4:6
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
NKJV
You don't care to obey GOD'S WORD, the BIBLE, huh.
I try to obey EVERY WORD of God's Word, the Bible.
YOU are the one who claimed you 'don't care' what I believe.
YOU are the pot calling the kettle black
STILL nothing that joe smith ever RESTORED. NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that his junk wasn't fiction (except where he copied the kjv Bible). . .
I did, here and you ignored it. I understand why you ignored it, cant acknowledge evidence that early christians had doctrine similar to Mormons, but truth is truth.
Three degrees of glory? NOTHING ANYWHERE FROM GOD EVER says that people live in 'glories' when they die. . .joe smith just INVENTED that fairytale. His concept requires a new and made-up MEANING of the word 'glory.'
THAT is 'all the stuff [y'all] pointed out at the beginning of the thread.' YOU didn't even do that. . .'theway' did.
1. EVIDENCE requires CHECKABLE CITATIONS, and NONE of those are there.
Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
I did, here and you ignored it. I understand why you ignored it, cant acknowledge evidence that early christians had doctrine similar to Mormons, but truth is truth.
STILL nothing that joe smith ever RESTORED. NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that his junk wasn't fiction (except where he copied the kjv Bible). . .
2. WHO is 'papias?' Was he a known heretic who thought that God was a duck or a golden calf?
3. There is NO EVIDENCE that the CHRISTIANS AS A CHURCH ever believed any such thing.
4. You had to search pretty hard to find an anomaly you could PRETEND made a case for yourself (though it didn't.)
STILL NO EVIDENCE. NOTHING but a few 'claims' of one man who supposedly believed you can live on a 'pretty or a 'wonderful' ' when you die (a 'glory').
And even THAT JUNK not properly CITED so we could check it out.
TYPICAL CULT BEHAVIOR IMHO.
WHERE are your 'families are forever?' Your 'you can become a god?' Your 'twelve-year-old 'elders? Your 'authorities?' Your 'high priests? (OTHER THAN JESUS HIMSELF)? YOUR manmade 'apostles.' Your multiple gods? Your 'spirit children?'
Your 'spirit-brother-of-satan jesus?'
Oh yes, JOEY SMITH INVENTED ALL THEM HORSE-APPLES.
Last edited by Christian; 09-05-2017 at 12:52 PM.