was lucifer created evil?

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL.

Says the one who can believe in two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time!!!!

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

Hardly, stem. It's ILLOGICAL to believe the BOA is "scripture" when the m****cript has been OBJECTIVELY DETERMINED TO BE A PAGAN DOCUMENT AND NOT WRITTEN BY THE PATRIARCH ABRAHAM.

Your fee-e-e-e-e-e-elings trump logic, stem. That's the very sad truth of the matter.

[stemelbow]

Funny, JD. Typical too--change the subject to your rather jaded talking points whenever you get stuck in your illogic. Adorable...JD.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

You're the one who brought up "logic"...something Mos don't possess.

[stemelbow]

yeah...not one Mormon understands logic according to JD, but he gets all illogical in the very thread he exclaims such. It just has not bite, JD, when you claim others aren't logical, seeing as how illogical you are.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

yeah...not one Mormon understands logic according to JD, but he gets all illogical in the very thread he exclaims such. It just has not bite, JD, when you claim others aren't logical, seeing as how illogical you are.

love,
stem

I'm not the one who insists in believing in the BOA when the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE proves its a FRAUD, a HOAX.

You haven't one "logical" bone in your body, stem. Why do you even try?

[nrajeff]

FJD, YOU claimed that God is the AUTHOR of everything that has ever existed, does exist, or will exist. The AUTHOR has responsibility for what he AUTHORED, FJD. Including any evil done by any of the characters he created, er, AUTHORED. You are the one who has painted yourself into the corner of where your beliefs and up. This has nothing to do with LDS speculation or LDS teachings. Your dilemma would still exist even if Joe Smith had never been born. Your dilemma existed before anyone knew anything about Joseph Smith. The fact that he and us pointed out the abomination that your beliefs lay on God's doorstep, is just us being the messenger that your emperor is naked. Whether we are around to bring you the news or not, the status of your emperor remains the same.

[stemelbow]

Well said, Jeff. JD's been hiding behind his "well you believe the BoA..." complaint whenever backed into a corner. His desperation is telling. Long ago he conceded that God did create evil, only He said you must qualify it with the term "indirectly". So to JD, God is the source of evil "indirectly". Anyway, it seems he'll leave it at that, hoping somehow this whole issue will just go away so he can continue to grandstand and claim he knows what he's talking about in regards to the BoA because he saw some info on the net which mimicked Charles Larson's attempted critiques.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Well said, Jeff. JD's been hiding behind his "well you believe the BoA..." complaint whenever backed into a corner. His desperation is telling. Long ago he conceded that God did create evil, only He said you must qualify it with the term "indirectly". So to JD, God is the source of evil "indirectly". Anyway, it seems he'll leave it at that, hoping somehow this whole issue will just go away so he can continue to grandstand and claim he knows what he's talking about in regards to the BoA because he saw some info on the net which mimicked Charles Larson's attempted critiques.

love,
stem

God created us all with free will.. That means there is the possibility to do evil.. That doesn't mean that God forces the evil.. You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Sorry, Jim, considering the arguments I've laid here, your ****ogy doesn't apply. I didn't create my children from my imagination, or ex nihilo. My goodness one of them is adopted. I didn't have any part of creating him.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sorry, Jim, considering the arguments I've laid here, your ****ogy doesn't apply. I didn't create my children from my imagination, or ex nihilo. My goodness one of them is adopted. I didn't have any part of creating him.

love,
stem

Are you comparing yourself to God? I wonder just how God deals with the level of Blasphemy that mormons seem to live in... IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Are you comparing yourself to God? I wonder just how God deals with the level of Blasphemy that mormons seem to live in... IHS jim

You tried to provide the ****ogy that having chilcren is like unto God making the creatures out of nothing. Not I.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

You tried to provide the ****ogy that having chilcren is like unto God making the creatures out of nothing. Not I.

love,
stem

I was what? I said you have to teach your children right from wrong.. That had nothing to do with their creation.. Yes we use biology to procreate our children.. But that isn't all that they are now is it? They are beings of Body, Mind (some people call this soul), and Spirit.. Procreation can provide the first two of these but the Spirit of man is special and God given.. He forms that with in us as we are form within the womb.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Your argument, Jim, was, and I quote..."You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage."

Essentially you did not in anyway address my argument in this unless you are trying to suggest that us having children is like unto God creating creatures out of nothing. If that is not what you meant, then you should be more clear in your attempted arguments. Either way, you still have not addressed my argument.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Your argument, Jim, was, and I quote..."You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage."

Essentially you did not in anyway address my argument in this unless you are trying to suggest that us having children is like unto God creating creatures out of nothing. If that is not what you meant, then you should be more clear in your attempted arguments. Either way, you still have not addressed my argument.

love,
stem

The point is you are as guilty of the sin of your children as God is guilty of the sin of mankind.. I said nothing about the means of creation.. If you what to discuss exnihilo I am up for it but it wasn't in my mind in this thread.. I was speaking about your heresy of blaming God for the sin of the world.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The point is you are as guilty of the sin of your children as God is guilty of the sin of mankind..

---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.

I was speaking about your heresy of blaming God for the sin of the world..

--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

[James Banta]

[nrajeff;42100]---No, wrong. We are NOT ABLE to know which sins our children will commit, and we are not able to prevent those sins by creating our kids any OTHER way. We are not the Evangelical version of God, who is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your version of God IS all that, and therefore IS able to alter the programming of ANY of His creations, before He even creates them. We do NOT have those abilities. We are only able to bring our children into this world and do our best to teach them HOW to obey God's will. We cannot pre-program them so they will do it. But YOUR version of God IS able to do that. So if His creations do what He programmed them to do, then He is 100% responsible for that. Who is responsible for the GOOD things you do, Jim? YOU? I don't think you will agree with that. You give 100% of the credit to God. So you must give 100% of the BLAME for the BAD things you do, to Him as well.

You are not able to know this even though the Holy Spirit made it clear in the words of the Apostle James:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

That pretty well spells it out doesn't? When you bring a child into the world you know they will be as guilty before a Holy God as a murderer, or an adulterer. No matter how good they may appear for man's perspective.. Because you know this the sin is on you for bringing them into the world. You can't have it both ways if God knows that a person will be evil and doesn't prevent them from being you think they should live you want to blame God and totally eliminate free agency. Then both you and God are responsible for the sins of your children sense you have full knowledge that they will sin and that sin will be just a serious and murder in the eyes of a Holy God.... AS I said before that whole premise is nonsense.. Knowing of future sin is NOT responsibility for it commission..

--No, I don't blame the REAL God for the sin of the world. I only blame YOUR (incorrect) version of Him.

If I thought for a second that God is the gods of mormonism I would think that he is responsible for the sin of the world.. That Mormon god forced Adam into earth or break God's Law and take the fruit.. They were contradictory commands.. Both couldn't be kept.. The BofM said that:

2 Nephi 2:25
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

According to your book of scripture Adam had to sin in order to bring mankind into the world.. Please tell me this isn't a contradictory command.. Tell me that God wanted Adam to turn away from Him and toward a sinful world.. After all he becames just like God when he ate the fruit, didn't he? He knew good from evil.. But the cost of being like God was death.. The mormon god was involved. Adam's sin was forced on Him. It wasn't just knowing tht Adam would sin Adam was not given a choice. He was trapped in a catch 22. The Mormon god forced Adam to do it. He wanted Adam to sin, he needed Adam to sin.. It was built into his plan that Adan had to sin.. The mormon god required sin to make a plan of his will work.. Don't eat the fruit and Adam is sinning by not having children. Eat the fruit and go directly against the command not to do so.. The mormon God Force Adam to sin. He actually built sin into his plan.. A god that works through the commission od sin.. That is garbage doctrine..

The Christian God's will was that we live forever with Him in a Paradise. In eternal love and joy.. Sin destroyed that perfect will of God so God in his eternal Mercy and Love devised the cross.. You lay in terrific sin before God and then as a "good" mormon tell God that you are worthy of entering His house and baring His name? And you call me wrong.. In God's eyes you are a filthy person, The great prophet Isaiah saw himself to be a liar before God. I liar who lived among liars.. He recognized his horrible sinful place before God. When will you do the same..

Yes we give God the credit for the good we do.. As we do that we are tools in His hand.. What is someone who is not a child of God does good? Bill Gates does a lot of GOOD in the world and take the credit for himself. You don't see a difference here? For the evil I do I blame my fallen heart.. My corrupt flesh.. Did you teach your children to lie Jeff? I know you didn't but they still lied didn't they? It is built into them to do evil.. They inherited man's desire for evil. Adam brought that on each of us.. God came into the world to correct that mess we caused.. You go right on blaming God for the evil in your heart. I am sure at the judgment that many will point their Finger at God and blame Him as they are cast into the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes we use biology to procreate our children.. But that isn't all that they are now is it? They are beings of Body, Mind (some people call this soul), and Spirit.. Procreation can provide the first two of these but the Spirit of man is special and God given.. He forms that with in us as we are form within the womb.. IHS jim

So you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind (which some people consider to be the soul) of a child ???

By "mind" you aren't referring to the "brain", are you ?

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

So you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind (which some people consider to be the soul) of a child ???

By "mind" you aren't referring to the "brain", are you ?

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

No, not the brain. I am speaking the the self awareness that is inherent in all men.. The soul is the feeling, thought, and action of a person the relationship of the intellectual and the physical.. Animals have such as part of what they are. They feel fear. The feel anger. They even feel tenderness and love.. What they don't know and have no way of knowing is that God is.. It is not that which is given by God.. The spirit that was placed into us by God is incorporeal part of humans that brings our essence of what and who we are. The part of us that makes us conscience of God.. You can disagree with that and call man the combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit.. If you wish.. You can say you have 12 eggs and I can say I have a dozen.. It means the say thing.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No, not the brain. I am speaking the the self awareness that is inherent in all men.. The soul is the feeling, thought, and action of a person the relationship of the intellectual and the physical.. Animals have such as part of what they are. They feel fear. The feel anger. They even feel tenderness and love.. What they don't know and have no way of knowing is that God is.. It is not that which is given by God.. The spirit that was placed into us by God is incorporeal part of humans that brings our essence of what and who we are. The part of us that makes us conscience of God.. You can disagree with that and call man the combination of Body, Mind, and Spirit.. If you wish.. You can say you have 12 eggs and I can say I have a dozen.. It means the say thing.. IHS jim

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Jim.

Now let's see if we're in agreement on this issue as much as you may think.

I believe there are only 2 main parts to us, or to each man and woman.

1) A body (which is composed of our brain and a lot of other parts), and
2) A spirit (with our spirit being what some people refer to as our mind).

I believe our soul is the comprehensive "essence" of what we are, which in my condition now is a combination of both my spirit (or mind) and my body, but which when I die will be only a spirit until I'm translated or resurrected such that my spirit and resurrected body will re-unite and become glorified to never again be divided.

Now, let's get back to the questions I was asking you earlier:

Do you think mortal men and women procreate a body and mind of a child ???

You've already stated that by "mind" you aren't referring to our "brain", so are you saying that you think mortal men and women procreate both a body and the "mind" of a child ???

What do you think a person's "spirit" is, Jim, and what makes you think mortal men and women are the ones who procreate the mind of a child ?

Yes I really believe that the mind is part of the procreative process.. The mind develops in a child's brain.. It is the total of what they are taught and what they experience.. Dogs have mind but as much as they can learn they will never become God aware.. The part of us that separates us from animals is the spirit that is created by God withing a person.. This part of what we are is what DOES make us God aware.. Our spirits longs to be with their maker. Mormons do like the idea that everything was spiritual made before the world was but the only verses in the Bible that speaks to where our spirits came from and what the order of creation is all disagree with that false teaching.. The Natural is first and then the spiritual.. That is directly from the Holy Spirit.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

FYI, stem and ALL LDS:

Orthodox Judaism does teach that GOD CREATED EVIL.

I don't believe that, but thought you guys oughtta know that...

[stemelbow]

So you think you're in good company, then, huh?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

So you think you're in good company, then, huh?

love,
stem

No, since scripture declares that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL...that can ONLY mean that He didn't "create" evil.

[stemelbow]

That's all fine by me, JD, since my belief system does not force upon God the creation of evil as yours does. But pointing out the very anti-biblical message of your belief system does not help your cause. So, take a deep breath and engage the argument. It'll do you some good, particularly your ability to grasp the concept of logic.

love,
stem