No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The ordinance of baptism is part of the doctrine that Paul himself preached. [Hebrews 6:2] Paul was immersed in order to have his sins “washed away” [Acts 22:16] and taught that in order to have "redemption through his blood,the forgiveness of sins,in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" we are to be baptized "into Christ”. [Ephesians 1:3;Romans 6:3-4;Galatians 3:27] Jesus spoke of being "born of water" and Paul clarifies exactly which birth is being referred to here by saying this is "the water of rebirth" [John 3:3-5,NRSV;***us 3:5,NRSV]

You really believe now that that baptism of John is the same baptism that Paul was teaching in Acts 22:16? Paul had commanded men that knew only the Baptism of John to be rebaptized in Acts 19:1-6.. so John's baptism is NOT acceptable to the Church!!! What dose the p***age in acts 22 mean.. Lets look..

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Let put is in monder language.. Why do you put of obedience to Jesus? get up be baptized and call on His Name so that He can cleanse you of your sin.. Unless you ask Him to become His child you will not be forgiven:

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Roman 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These p***ages teach that you are totaly out of agreement with God in His word.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

What?? You just affirmed that in another thread that "salvation is a result of obedience", jeff.

---Yeah, I affirmed it 'cause it's something found in the Bible.

How could this mean anything else other than "works" merit you salvation?

---Gee...maybe because "works" and "OBEDIENCE" aren't synonymous, perhaps?

It's really quite funny to watch: I say something Biblical, such as that salvation results from obeying God's will. Then you and your protege, Billyray, accuse something Biblical of being unBiblical. And the way you do that is: You put words in the Bible's mouth that it never said: "WORKS-based salvation! WORKS-based salvation!" like a trained parrot. But since you don't want to be seen attacking what the BIBLE says, you try to claim that it's ME who said it, when, if you will actually stop the ridiculing and CHECK, I never said. What I said was what the Bible actually says. So that's a fairly clever straw man variation, but it's still transparent to people who watch carefully. OK, about 24 hours since the last time one of you told one us what we believe.....

I mean...c'mon, jeff. This is EXACTLY what you believe

---Right on schedule.

so how is that a "cheap shot"?

---What a pity, all that schooling and you still don't see that accusing someone who supports obedience to God and the Sermon on the Mount of supporting the WORKS OF THE LAW is a patent fallacy.

[nrajeff]

Questions for Jim: The verse you quoted:

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Is that verse saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation, since you don't get salvation if your sins haven't been washed away?

Or is the verse saying that baptistm is a requirement for becoming a Christian?

Or is it saying BOTH, since the requirements for becoming a Christian are ALSO the requirements for salvation?


And, final question: What kind of baptism is being to referred to in this verse?
Water baptism? Or a non-water "baptism into Jesus" ?

[Russianwolfe]

Great, are we having red herring for dinner? You seem to be serving it up quite heartily.

From what I read in the p***age cite, the Lord was referring to those who held the belief that all they had to say was Lord, Lord and they would be save. Christ, who was never one to mince words, clearly and directly refutes this idea by declaring quite clearly ' but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven'. Now, no matter what you might believe about faith, you cannot deny that Christ states very clearly here that obedience is a requirement to 'enter into the kingdom of heaven.' So again I have to ask, will you agree with Christ or on your understanding of what Paul is suppose to teach? You decide.

Marvin

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Show me the word faith.

Marvin, I think a key part of this p***age is in the last line where Jesus says "I never knew you". Clearly there are people who say they follow Jesus, or in the case of LDS they follow the wrong Jesus, and they may think that they are but they clearly do not have a relationship at all and NEVER had a relationship with the true Jesus of the Bible, that is why Jesus can say I NEVER KNEW YOU. Notice he does not say I knew you but you did not pull your own weight, he says I NEVER KNEW YOU.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

From what I read in the p***age cite, the Lord was referring to those who held the belief that all they had to say was Lord, Lord and they would be save. Christ, who was never one to mince words, clearly and directly refutes this idea by declaring quite clearly ' but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven'. Now, no matter what you might believe about faith, you cannot deny that Christ states very clearly here that obedience is a requirement to 'enter into the kingdom of heaven.' So again I have to ask, will you agree with Christ or on your understanding of what Paul is suppose to teach? You decide.

Marvin

What is the will of his Father in John 6?

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


Marvin says,
you cannot deny that Christ states very clearly here that obedience is a requirement to 'enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Bible says,
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So again I have to ask, will you agree with Christ or on your understanding of what Paul is suppose to teach? You decide.

Paul and Christ cannot teach conflicting theology if you accept the fact that the Bible is inspired scripture. One can't say you are saved by faith + Works whereas the others says you are saved by faith NOT your works. I have already given you multiple scriptures from Jesus that state clearly that your salvation is based on your faith.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You incorrectly ***ume that Jesus and Paul are in conflict. But lets see what Jesus has to say about faith and salvation.

NIV
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Paul and Christ cannot teach conflicting theology if you accept the fact that the Bible is inspired scripture. One can't say you are saved by faith + Works whereas the others says you are saved by faith NOT your works. I have already given you multiple scriptures from Jesus that state clearly that your salvation is based on your faith.

Please note that I did not attempt to even suggest that they were contradictory. I clearly stated that it is either what Christ said or what you think Paul said.

You might have given me one or two scriptures but all you have done is show that you are using statements by Christ to contradict Christ. You have yet to show how your understanding of them is correct. It is obviously not correct because you keep trying to use these scriptures to contradict my scriptures without any attempt to show how they can be reconciled. All you do is ask your pointless questions without providing any sort of answer.

So again I ask, do you believe what Christ said or what you think you understand Paul to have said? You decide.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So again I ask, do you believe what Christ said or what you think you understand Paul to have said? You decide.

Marvin

I believed that we are saved by faith and not by works, and this concept is clearly taught by both Christ and Paul.

"23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I believe that there are many who say that they follow Christ like the LDS, but in the end Christ will say to them "I never knew you"

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believed that we are saved by faith and not by works, and this concept is clearly taught by both Christ and Paul.

"23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I believe that there are many who say that they follow Christ like the LDS, but in the end Christ will say to them "I never knew you"

So, from what you have said, you deny the words of Christ. Is that your final decision?

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So, from what you have said, you deny the words of Christ. Is that your final decision?

Marvin

I believed that we are saved by faith and not by works, and this concept is clearly taught by both Christ and Paul.

I affirm that we are to "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

[Billyray]

Matthew 7
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Marvin, look at the whole p***age in context. First it speaks of false prophets, then it moves on to other false believers who claim to know Jesus and claim to do things in his name but these folks clearly are NOT known by Jesus because they are not his true disciples. This in my opinion nails Mormonism to a tee. First it is speaking about Joseph Smith, next it is speaking about the other leaders and teachers within the false organization. These run of the mill members claim miraculous healing in the name of Jesus via their phony priesthood authority. But in the end Jesus will simply say get away from me because I never knew you.

[Russianwolfe]

And don't forget Billy, if there are false prophets, there must also be true prophets. Otherwise all that is needed is to say beware of prophets. You seem to know a lot about false prophets, but if you don't know about true prophets, then what can you know of the True Christ? Since you can only give me half of the message of the Gospel, then I must ***ume that you don't know the other half. I already have the whole message of the Gospel because I can see the false prophets and I know where to look for the true prophets. And all of this is affirmed to me by a witness of the Holy Spirit.

Marvin

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 7
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Marvin, look at the whole p***age in context. First it speaks of false prophets, then it moves on to other false believers who claim to know Jesus and claim to do things in his name but these folks clearly are NOT known by Jesus because they are not his true disciples. This in my opinion nails Mormonism to a tee. First it is speaking about Joseph Smith, next it is speaking about the other leaders and teachers within the false organization. These run of the mill members claim miraculous healing in the name of Jesus via their phony priesthood authority. But in the end Jesus will simply say get away from me because I never knew you.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

And don't forget Billy, if there are false prophets, there must also be true prophets.

Marvin

BTW there are true prophets, read the OT. But forward speaking that is an ***umption on your part Marvin.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW there are true prophets, read the OT. But forward speaking that is an ***umption on your part Marvin.

So then, again, you are comprimising the the words of Christ!!! I wonder about your belief in the scriptures, Billy. It is looking more and more like you only believe your interpretation of the scritpures and not what they actually say.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW there are true prophets, read the OT. But forward speaking that is an ***umption on your part Marvin.

But Christ was not talking about false prophets of the past, Billy, he was talking about false prophets of the future. Your statement here does nothing to contradict my statement.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

So then, again, you are comprimising the the words of Christ!!! I wonder about your belief in the scriptures, Billy.
Marvin

Marvin, just because you can't address my response you are left to repeat yourself over and over again. Your repeating yourself over and over again does not make it so. Marvin, you can't ignore all of the rest of the Bible to try and prove your point. In order for your proof text to work (which it clearly does not IMO) would mean that you would have to throw out all of the verses that I posted from Jesus and all of the verses that Paul wrote about salvation by faith.

Marvin please tell us what the following verse means. Do you believe Jesus in the following verse?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[Russianwolfe]

Considering that you have not even once addressed in any way the text that I used as my base, only shows that you have no argument to contradict mine. Just because you can cite scriptures that seem to contradict does nothing to show that my argument has no merit. You have yet to address my point or to explain how my point is wrong by showing that your argument is correct. Showing scriptures that seem to contradict what I have cited, is not answering my point. And not providing a counter argument shows that you don't have a valid logical argument and does not show that my argument is wrong.

All of the scriptures that you have cited refer to a time before my scripture. Christ is not addressing those who are about to believe in the Gospel. Christ is addressing those who are already faithful believers and think that they have a right to enter the kingdom. But Christ first reminds them that obedience as well as faith are required even if they have perform miracles in the name of Christ.

Your scriptures address those who are about the become believers. What I have cited is somewhere in the future of your scriptures. Yes, first is belief and then from that will evolve faith and following faith will be works if the believer keeps the commandments. Of course my scripture points out that obedience is not enough and agrees with James that faith without works is dead. But all of that is after the believer has started his journey by believing and following Christ. The scriptures you cited do not address in any way the same subject as mine and thus have no merit in this discussion.

Marvin

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin, just because you can't address my response you are left to repeat yourself over and over again. Your repeating yourself over and over again does not make it so. Marvin, you can't ignore all of the rest of the Bible to try and prove your point. In order for your proof text to work (which it clearly does not IMO) would mean that you would have to throw out all of the verses that I posted from Jesus and all of the verses that Paul wrote about salvation by faith.

Marvin please tell us what the following verse means. Do you believe Jesus in the following verse?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Considering that you have not even once addressed in any way the text that I used as my based, only shows that you have no argument to contradict mine. Just because you can cite scriptures that seem to contradict does nothing to show that my argument has no merit. You have yet to address my point or to explain how my point is wrong. Showing scriptures that seem to contradict what I have cited, is not answering my point.
Marvin

Marvin, I have repeatedly responded to your specific verses on multiple posts. The section of scripture speaks of false prophets and it speaks of those who never knew the real Christ--either they were following a false Christ or they were simply giving lip service such as the Benny Hinn's of the world. The section of scripture says "but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." You have ***umed that this means works but I have provided you with the verse in John 6 which says "4For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Why do you believe that the will of the Father is works rather than coming to the Son as it states in John 6? Plus your ***umption contradicts multiple other verses that clearly state the we are saved by faith and not by works.


Now back to the question that I had for you.

Marvin please tell us what the following verses means. Do you believe Jesus and Paul in the following verses?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I challenge you to read first the Gospels and find out what it was that Christ preached. This then is the foundation upon which Paul built, whether the Gospels were written at the time or not. Now with that as a sure foundation, reconcile what Christ taught with what Paul teaches. Remember, they both taught the truth, so you cannot elevate one over the other they must be reconciled and not compromised.

I read the Gospels and Christ teaches a Gospel of action not of idle belief. In the verses that I quote, Christ very pointedly says:



Christ is addressing very clearly and directly those who claim faith as their salvation when he talks of those who say 'Lord, Lord'. But Christ points out that that is not enough, obedience is required or else faith is nothing at all. And these people even claim to have faith to perform miracles:



And they did it all in the name of the one who they claim to have faith in. But Christ denies them



Because, while they had faith to perform miracles, they did not obey the Father. Obedience was not part of their faith.

So it is clear to me that the works do not only follow salvation if others can imitate them like they did in the scripture I quoted.

In other places, Christ refers to the two groups and offers one salvation because they helped their fellow men and denies salvation to others because they did not. The first group wondered when they helped Christ or visited Christ and were told that when they had done it to the least of Christ's brethern, they were doing it to Him, which is echoed in the Book of Mormon as 'When you are in the service of your fellow men, you are only in the service of your God.'

I know that faith without works never saved anyone and will not. So if faith without works cannot save you, of what good is teacher who tells that salvation is by faith alone, when the scriptures clearly teach otherwise.

Marvin

Faith alone saved the thief on the cross.

Real faith...saving faith..is all that's necessary. All of the verses I've quoted (and many, many more) say exactly that. You can't just throw those out, Marvin, and pretend they don't exist. No one is saying works are not necessary (or that works will not follow a saving faith). They will, most definitely, if time permits. But, it is not the works that have the power to save. Works are the fruit of salvation. Only faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice, has the power to save.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You incorrectly ***ume that Jesus and Paul are in conflict. But lets see what Jesus has to say about faith and salvation.

NIV
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

Good verses, Billy....and all from the Gospels.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Good verses, Billy....and all from the Gospels.

They are good verses and they are all from Christ. I saw them on a post a short while back from from the other unnamed board. I can't recall the poster or I would of given him or her credit.

[nrajeff]

You are half right, Libs. If a person wants to--but is UNABLE to--help his fellowman, then God isn't going to be like a Pharisee or Calvinist and say "Too bad, you must go to hell even if it's not your fault."

The "thief" while on the cross, about to die, was obviously unable to do much in the way of good deeds for his fellowmen.

The good news from the LDS is that God is fair, and WILL NOT punish people for things they failed to do that were beyond their control. Such as not accepting Jesus due to their living in a time and place where no one had heard of Jesus. And God won't be holding anyone but Adam accountable for Adam's transgression.

So your point actually is a reason to abandon Calvinism and the Athanasian Creed, and come back to LDS, since LDS theology portrays God as a much more fair and understanding being than the compe***ion does.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Questions for Jim: The verse you quoted:

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Is that verse saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation, since you don't get salvation if your sins haven't been washed away?

Or is the verse saying that baptistm is a requirement for becoming a Christian?

Or is it saying BOTH, since the requirements for becoming a Christian are ALSO the requirements for salvation?


And, final question: What kind of baptism is being to referred to in this verse?
Water baptism? Or a non-water "baptism into Jesus" ?

The verse says our sins our washed away as we call on the name of the Lord.. You won't allow God to apply the Blood of Jesus to those He wills.. Or are you denying that it is the blood that cleanse us of sin? If we could gain a cleansing of sin by mere water baptism why did Jesus have to die? So why would prayer be brought up in the p***age at all it is was baptism that cleanses of sin? Try reading now with these new eyes..

I don't see any reason in the text to say this isn't physical baptism.. I still don't see any reason for Jesus to have to suffer at all if a person can be cleansed of sin by water baptism.. And that would also make God a liar when He told us that without shedding of Blood there in no remission.. So what is the blood for anyway? It seems very unimportant in mormonism.. What was it for anyway? IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The verse says our sins our washed away as we call on the name of the Lord..

---I thought it said "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

I saw TWO things in there--not just calling on Jesus' name.

How many did you count?

You won't allow God to apply the Blood of Jesus to those He wills..

---YOU won't allow Jesus to use baptism as part of the process by which sins are remitted.

Or are you denying that it is the blood that cleanse us of sin? If we could gain a cleansing of sin by mere water baptism why did Jesus have to die? So why would prayer be brought up in the p***age at all it is was baptism that cleanses of sin?

---I guess you missed the lessons on baptism where they teach that if it weren't for Jesus' atonement, all the baptizing in the world would not remit even one sin.

Try reading now with these new eyes..

---How about YOU try reading it now, with the new understanding I just taught you.

I don't see any reason in the text to say this isn't physical baptism..

---Thanks. I agree.

I still don't see any reason for Jesus to have to suffer at all if a person can be cleansed of sin by water baptism..

----It is THANKS to Jesus' atonement that baptism can be an efficacious ordinance. Same as with the Eucharist's potential to help sanctify a person.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

You are half right, Libs. If a person wants to--but is UNABLE to--help his fellowman, then God isn't going to be like a Pharisee or Calvinist and say "Too bad, you must go to hell even if it's not your fault."

The "thief" while on the cross, about to die, was obviously unable to do much in the way of good deeds for his fellowmen.

The good news from the LDS is that God is fair, and WILL NOT punish people for things they failed to do that were beyond their control. Such as not accepting Jesus due to their living in a time and place where no one had heard of Jesus. And God won't be holding anyone but Adam accountable for Adam's transgression.

So your point actually is a reason to abandon Calvinism and the Athanasian Creed, and come back to LDS, since LDS theology portrays God as a much more fair and understanding being than the compe***ion does.

You seem to have this terrible need to make God in the image of what you consider to be "fair". It really gets in the way of your "seeing" God's truth, IMHO. God is completely and perfectly just in all of His ways, whether we see it or understand it or not. That's who He is...one of His main attributes (justice), which is how we ended up in so much trouble, to begin with.