No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I have shown you exactly what Old Testament citations that the apostle Paul is quoting from. He is clearly referring to nations and not individuals. All you can do is accuse me of bait and switch tactics and bad hermeneutical tricks. Is this the best you can do Father_JD? Wait I forgot you repeat your knee **** nuh-uh response. Finishing off with a flourish of false bravado was a nice touch.

All you`ve done is obfuscate Romans 9 by appealing to OTHER verses which do NOT jibe with the CONTEXT AT HAND.

Yes. You`re the master of bait and switch just like how LDS refuse to engage the CONTEXT of John 10 but choose instead to OBFUSCATE by knee****ing to John 17.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

All you've done is obfuscate Romans 9 by appealing to OTHER verses which do NOT jibe with the CONTEXT AT HAND.

Yes. You`re the master of bait and switch just like how LDS refuse to engage the CONTEXT of John 10 but choose instead to OBFUSCATE by knee ****ing to John 17.

Please consider the answers that FatherJD has giving me in this part of the thread as opposed to my response and then think long and hard if you want to engage him in a debate on Romans 9 his so called Calvinist stronghold.

[Father_JD]

Why absolutely! Let NRA jeff think TWICE before challenging Romans 9 after I have provided a LINE BY LINE EXEGESIS without your phony-Moroni-baloney EISEGESIS.

Here ya go, M. The exegesis was on another thread...

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...5516#post65516

[Father_JD]

This alone nullifies your argument, jeff:

FJD: Mankind is FALLEN.

---But not as far as you Calvin types think it has. You think that mankind fell from total, 100% perfection to total, 100% evilness and depravity. There is plenty of space between those 2 extremes that mankind could have fallen to. But Calvinism is all about extremes. No gray areas for Calvinism. It's one of its hugest flaws.

No such belief as "100 percent evilness and depravity". You've demonstrated yet again your appalling ignorance of Reformation beliefs. How many times do I have to correct you only for you to come back with a straw man like this?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

This alone nullifies your argument, jeff:

---Nuh-uh, no it doesn't.

No such belief as "100 percent evilness and depravity". You've demonstrated yet again your appalling ignorance of Reformation beliefs. How many times do I have to correct you only for you to come back with a straw man like this?

--Oh, it's no straw man, as I can prove by asking you a few questions:

1. How much does a person who ends up being saved, participate in the decision of whether or not he gets saved?

FJD: ZERO.

2. How much righteousness is in an unsaved person?

FJD: ZERO.

3. How far, measured as a percentage of righteousness, or even the ABILITY to be righteous, did mankind FALL after the Forbidden Fruit Incident?

FJD: 100%

If my guesses as to what your answers will be are wrong, feel free to put in the right answer.

[Father_JD]

You confuse spiritual DEATH with the Biblical doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that sin has tainted every avennue of man`s being. I wasn`t addressing man`s inability to save himself, but that because man IS created Imago Dei, he possesses some semblance of right and wrong. In other words, you`ve equivocated the argument once more, The reason is that you think you understand BIBLICAL, Reformed theology but don't really. You possess a skewed version of it.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You confuse spiritual DEATH with the Biblical doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that sin has tainted every avennue of man`s being.

--What's the diff? Aren't the two interrelated? Doesn't EITHER ONE prevent a person, TOTALLY, from having ANY part in the decision as to whether he gets saved or not?

I wasn`t addressing man`s inability to save himself, but that because man IS created Imago Dei, he possesses some semblance of right and wrong.

--This is interesting. So YOU believe that ADAM AND EVE were NOT created in God's image, since THEY were NOT created with any knowledge of good and evil. Yet you believe that their DESCENDANTS ARE created in God's image. Does the Bible back you up on all that?

See how messed-up Calvinism gets?

[Father_JD]

Well, jeff...I always have you to thank for your novel (and sometimes bizarre) way of looking at things.

The diff is that FALLEN man has "bios" but NOT "zoe". In our "bios" sphere (pun intended!), we still think, reason, etc. WHY? Because we have all been created "Imago Dei". Remember, that Adam and Eve (and they too are created "Imago Dei") DID partake of the "Tree of Knowledge" but before that, they were completely INNOCENT, not knowing...such as that they were "naked". It was AFTER haven partaken, they then KNEW they had SINNED.

I'd say that "Total Depravity" and "Spiritual Death" are interrelated, but you're still confusing the categories. Spiritual death is the specific culprit for one NOT being able to choose to save himself, NOT "Total Depravity" per se.

[nrajeff]

So who is more like the gods, knowing good from evil?

a) Adam and Eve, pre-fall

b) their descendants

Your reasoning leads to the conclusion that God made US more in His image than He did Adam and Eve, since THEY were given NO knowledge of good and evil, while WE, by your own admission, have SOME portion of such knowledge. I am not saying you are wrong on this, since it sounds LDSish. Just saying it's interesting to see you saying it.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So who is more like the gods, knowing good from evil?

a) Adam and Eve, pre-fall

b) their descendants

Your reasoning leads to the conclusion that God made US more in His image than He did Adam and Eve, since THEY were given NO knowledge of good and evil, while WE, by your own admission, have SOME portion of such knowledge. I am not saying you are wrong on this, since it sounds LDSish. Just saying it's interesting to see you saying it.

Like I say, jeff...I can always count on you for your novel, but sometimes bizarre way of looking at things.

The question is MOOT, jeff. Adam and Eve FELL. They were created directly by God. We are NOT created directly, but are Adam and Eve's posterity who inherited a fractured form of "knowing good from evil" thanks to our FALLENESS. Knowing "good from evil" did NOT make either them or us "like God" as you try to make it out to be, or into "gods", but only gained one small attribute of His and this was done by SINNING.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Like I say, jeff...I can always count on you for your novel, but sometimes bizarre way of looking at things.

The question is MOOT, jeff. Adam and Eve FELL. They were created directly by God. We are NOT created directly, but are Adam and Eve's posterity who inherited a fractured form of "knowing good from evil" thanks to our FALLENESS. Knowing "good from evil" did NOT make either them or us "like God" as you try to make it out to be, or into "gods", but only gained one small attribute of His and this was done by SINNING.

According to Jeff's ****ogy, knowing good and evil are the only attributes that make God, God.

One thing for sure, the mormons posting here with their blind mormon rhetoric have to learn that context is not a four letter word.

Of course reading the Bible in context would destroy their defense of mormonism and the way they are programed, they can't allow anything into their minds that would do that.

Andy

[Father_JD]

Thanks, Andy. I've typed this till my fingers have almost bled (Ohhh, I guess that's my own form of redemption instead of the garden, on the keyboard!) that CONTEXT DETERMINES MEANING. LDS pay all sorts of lip service to context, but then readily ignore context because of exactly what you wrote:

Context would destroy their defense of Mormonism.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

According to Jeff's ****ogy, knowing good and evil are the only attributes that make God, God.

---Hey, congrats, Andy--this is one of the most cogent, on-topic, (relatively) vitriol-free statements I have EVER seen you type. But of course it's a false ***ertion because the conclusion is fallacious. I never said or implied that having the ability to know good from evil is a deity's ONLYattribute. Here, let me list some others for you, to prove it:

1. The ability to perform what the average human would call a miracle, such as the healings and corpse-rescusitating and weather-control that Jesus did.

2. The ability to know future events.

3. The ability to create galaxies and the suns and planets they contain.

4. More wisdom and knowledge and love and fairness than humans are currently capable of.

The rest of your post was your usual irrelevant rambling rhetoric and does not merit a response, but hey, about 25% of your post was thoughtful, so I award it a "D-MINUS" instead of the usual "F."

[James Banta]

Allow me to look at your statements and critique them as you have done to ANDY..

[nrajeff;65778][COLOR="Purple"]---Hey, congrats, Andy--this is one of the most cogent, on-topic, (relatively) vitriol-free statements I have EVER seen you type. But of course it's a false ***ertion because the conclusion is fallacious. I never said or implied that having the ability to know good from evil is a deity's ONLYattribute. Here, let me list some others for you, to prove it:

Normally your posts are clear and understandable but as you have falsely said of Andy's posts they are filled with errors and false statements.. Your additions to his list make it clear that you have no idea about the nature of God or resurrected man.

1. The ability to perform what the average human would call a miracle, such as the healings and corpse-rescusitating and weather-control that Jesus did.

The Bible is clear on healing and their source. It is NOT in someone's phony priesthood that the sick are raised. That takes the Glory of healing away from where it belongs.. It is the pray said in faith that God used to do such miracles.

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

2. The ability to know future events.

While man can live forever with God in his Kingdom only God is the YHWH.. That is He and only He is the timeless omnipresent God.. No one else will ever obtain that position.. (Isaiah 43:10)

3. The ability to create galaxies and the suns and planets they contain.

God has already created ALL things.. The position of creator is filled and nothing and no one can ***ume that
place.. (Isaiah 43:10)

4. More wisdom and knowledge and love and fairness than humans are currently capable of.

Yes because we will continue learning of God and in so doing we grow in wisdom, knowledge, love, and fairness..

I award you the usual "F" because of your lack of understanding and knowledge of God's word.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Allow me to look at your statements and critique them as you have done to ANDY..

---Um, okay, but I wasn't attacking a post YOU had made, but ANDY WAS attacking a post that I had made. So I critiqued his attack on ME. You are just plain ****ing into something that does not concern you. But as I said, that is OK, as long as you don't mind the scathing re****al that I am about to give your attack on my post.

Normally your posts are clear and understandable

---Thanks! I try quite hard to make them so. Glad you recognized their clarity and understandability.

but as you have falsely said of Andy's posts they are filled with errors and false statements..

----If you are referring to 99% of Andy's posts, yes, I agree: they ARE filled with errors and false statements, such as "Your post is irrelevant because you are not a Christian." See his fallacy (aka ERROR) there? Whether or not a poster meets Andy's criteria for being a Christian is IRRELEVANT to whether or not the poster's comments are relevant to the topic in question. A cl***ic logical fallacy there. And thus, a false statement. And since many of Andy's posts contain his trademarked "Your post is irrelevant" accusation, many or most of his posts contain false statements. Q.E.D.

Your additions to his list make it clear that you have no idea about the nature of God or resurrected man.

---It is so obvious that you don't know what you are even talking about or addressing, so I need again to remind you to FOCUS, Jim. Focus on what it is you really think you are attacking, so you will appear less foolish. Here is what was going on before you ****ed in:

1. Andy's accusation was: That my mentioning that knowledge of good-evil and fair-unfair is one of God's attributes, means that I was saying that this is
"the only attributes that make God, God."

Which is totally false, of course. So my re****al to Andy included a list of some of the OTHER attributes that God has, to show Andy that I believe that God's attributes number FAR MORE than just one.

Some of God's other attributes that I listed were:
1. The ability to perform what the average human would call a miracle, such as the healings and corpse-rescusitating and weather-control that Jesus did.

2. The ability to know future events.

3. The ability to create galaxies and the suns and planets they contain.

4. More wisdom and knowledge and love and fairness than humans are currently capable of.

...which are indisputably some of God's attributes, as the vast majority of all Christians would agree. So your attacks on my post are bewilderingly illogical, Jim. It's like you weren't sober when you read my post, so you ended up attacking things that I didn't even say.

I award you the usual "F" because of your lack of understanding and knowledge of God's word.. IHS jim

---But you just finished PRAISING my usual posts, Jim, for their clarity and understandability. Remember?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by jennieblue22

Christians often misinterpret the Bible (particularly using his words) to state that works "don't matter".

For example...?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by jennieblue22

The faith that awards salvation is the faith that enables us to do works that contribute to spiritual growth. Those "works" grow and strengthen the faith required for salvation.

First of all, it must be pointed out that God awards salvation. It is God ALONE who gives faith tha brings about salvation.

Works do NOT grow or strengthen faith at all. The works are a DEMONSTRATING of FAITH at work.

Yours is a perfect example of a "circular argument".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

What part of the thief was clearly not with Jesus in Paradise do you not understand?

Can you explain it again for me why you do not believe the Bible which clearly states that the thief on the cross will be with Jesus in Paradise?

[Mesenja]

Here is your post first to Jeff and then to me. You are obviously citing this as a proof text for salvation by faith alone.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Look at the thief on the cross who had faith and NO works yet he was saved.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Oh how soon you forgot about the thief on the cross. What works did he do?

Can you explain to me then if this is an example of salvation without works and the basis of the thief's justification is by faith alone then why did Jesus say the following to to Mary?

"Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God, and your God."

This forms in part the reason for my previous reply to you that on this basis the thief was not with Jesus in paradise or what you equate with heaven.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain it again for me why you do not believe the Bible which clearly states that the thief on the cross will be with Jesus in Paradise?

The thief on the cross must have been in the world of spirits where he was taught the gospel.

[akaSeerone]

You have taken what Jesus said to Mary out of context.

He was simply referring to His physical body. His Spirit had already been in the presence of the Father as seen in other Scripture.

Salvation is by Grace alone through Faith and FOLLOWED by works.

***us 3

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

And of course Ephesians 2:8-9 agrees.

You Mormons simply have it wrong and need to repent, get in line with the Bible and leave that pagan cult you are in.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

This forms in part the reason for my previous reply to you that on this basis the thief was not with Jesus in paradise or what you equate with heaven. The thief on the cross must have been in the world of spirits where he was taught the gospel.

---I think what confused Billy earlier was that you didn't make it clear that you were saying that the Bible doesn't say the thief went to his final destination--heaven--right after he died.
Hopefully, now Billy realizes that you were refuting his belief that the Paradise mentioned in that p***age is synonymous with the heaven where "Our Father who art in heaven" dwells. Billy may think that heaven is synonymous with the Paradise mentioned to the thief, but if Billy thinks that, then of course Billy is mistaken.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

. . .the thief was not with Jesus in paradise. . .

So you believe that the thief was NOT with Jesus in Paradise that day despite this clearly being written in the Bible?

Where was the thief that day?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I think what confused Billy earlier was that you didn't make it clear that you were saying that the Bible doesn't say the thief went to his final destination--heaven--right after he died. Hopefully,now Billy realizes that you were refutinghis beliefthat the Paradise mentioned in that p***age is synonymous with the heaven where "Our Father who art in heaven" dwells. Billy may think that heaven is synonymous with the Paradise mentioned to the thief,but if Billy thinks that,then of course Billy is mistaken.

What other reason would Billy use this as a proof text for salvation by faith alone if he did not equate paradise with where God lives?

[akaSeerone]

Not only where was he.....what did he do to earn to get there?

That is the bigger issue that these Mormons have perverted in thinking they can work their way to Heaven.

Andy

[Mesenja]

Words have meaning Billy. You take the meaning of the word Paradise to mean Heaven. Otherwise you wouldn't use this example as a proof text for salvation by faith alone.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Look at the thief on the cross who had faith and NO works yet he was saved.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Oh how soon you forgot about the thief on the cross. What works did he do?

Now unless you have a different interpretation of where those that are saved will spend their eternity then the premise of your argument is faulty and therefore the conclusion that you draw is in error.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that the thief was NOT with Jesus in Paradise that day despite this clearly being written in the Bible? Where was the thief that day?

Jesus said to Mary on the day of his resurrection that he had not yet ascended to his Father in Heaven. Yet he told the thief that he would be with him today in Paradise.

And he said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

"Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God,and your God."

Taking all this into account the thief could not be in the concept of Paradise that you envision. Also as I have stated in my previous post I believe that the thief was in the world of spirits being taught the gospel.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief on the cross must have been in the world of spirits where he was taught the gospel.