No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that the thief was NOT with Jesus in Paradise that day despite this clearly being written in the Bible?

Where was the thief that day?

I am trying to illustrate a point which you do not seem to get yet. PS Jeff was attempting to help you out.

Can you please address the questions?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post

The thief on the cross must have been in the world of spirits where he was taught the gospel.

No, actually like Abraham, the thief believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Why do you Mormons constantly try to pervert what the bible plainly teaches us?

You would be much better off to reject Mormonism and the false prophet Smith and line up with what the Bible so plainly teaches.

Andy

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am trying to illustrate a point which you do not seem to get yet. PS Jeff was attempting to help you out. Can you please address the questions?

See my post:Your beating a dead horse

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Your beating a dead horse

So you believe that the thief was NOT with Jesus in Paradise that day despite this clearly being written in the Bible?

Where was the thief that day?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

What do you think my position is Einstein if I disagree with the translation of Luke 23:43. . .

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him,"I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise."

What is your translation of Luke 23:43? How did YOU come up with a different translation for this verses?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

No,actually like Abraham,the thief believed God,and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Why do you Mormons constantly try to pervert what the bible plainly teaches us?

You would be much better off to reject Mormonism and the false prophet Smith and line up with what the Bible so plainly teaches.

Andy

Where does the Bible plainly teach that the thief believed God and like Abraham it was credited to him as righteousness?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What is your translation of Luke 23:43? How did YOU come up with a different translation for this verses?

You keep saying you have one so just come out and sat it.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that the thief was NOT with Jesus in Paradise that day despite this clearly being written in the Bible?

Where was the thief that day?

I've already answered your question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You keep saying you have one so just come out and sat it.

I have several points, some depend on your answer to my questions that you have not yet provided, but let me start with this one. You said that you have a different translation for Luke 23:43. On what basis or on what authority do you have that gives you the right to change God's word?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I've already answered your question.

No you have not answered those questions. I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have several points,some depend on your answer to my questions that you have not yet provided,but let me start with this one. You said that you have a different translation for Luke 23:43. On what basis or on what authority do you have that gives you the right to change God's word?

What I said was that I disagree with the translation. They are not consistent in the usage of the word paradise in this particular instance. I believe that a better rendition of this verse would be “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits.” First let me preface this part of my reply by stating the following. Whether you agree with the Protestant or Latter-day Saint interpretation of the usage of the word paradise in this particular instance the scriptures do not align with the idea that he was ever there. The thief for one did not qualify to be there. Second if you agree with the Protestant position that paradise equates itself with heaven then what Jesus said to Mary contradicts what he promised the thief.

BIBLE DICTIONARY
Paradise

However,the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word,especially in the Bible. For example,when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross,“To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43),the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read,“Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:424-25).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

What I said was that I disagree with the translation. I believe that a better rendition of this verse would be “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits.”

OK, so the basis for you stating that the Bible is translated incorrectly is based on the LDS Bible Dictionary.

LDS Bible Dictionary
"The statement would more accurately read,“Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:424-25)."

What is the basis for the LDS Bible Dictionary to state that this section of scripture is translated incorrectly? Did they base this on any ancient m****cripts or on the JST?

[Mesenja]

In it I stated quite clearly two reasons why I believe that this verse would more accurately read “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits.”

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK,so the basis for you stating that the Bible is translated incorrectly is based on the Latter-day Saint Bible Dictionary.

LDS Bible Dictionary

"The statement would more accurately read,“Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:424-25)."

What is the basis for the Latter-day Saint Bible Dictionary to state that this section of scripture is translated incorrectly? Did they base this on any ancient m****cripts or on the Joseph Smith Translation?

I only cited the BIBLE DICTIONARY as a reference to give support to my argument. No m****cript or the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible is cited as evidence for what they say.

They base their argument both on what Joseph Smith said about this verse and the the Bible not always being consistent in the use of this word. The evidence given for this last point is the fact that the thief was not ready for paradise.

Revelation 2:7

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

LDS Bible Dictionary
"The statement would more accurately read,“Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5:424-25)."

The evidence given for this last point is the fact that the thief was not ready for paradise.

So there is no evidence that the translation is incorrect based on any ancient m****cript or even the JST? Correct?

The whole basis for your belief that there is a mistranslation is that is simply disagrees with your preconceived theology. Isn't that correct?

BTW, who says that the thief was not ready for Paradise? Christ or Joseph Smith?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So there is no evidence that the translation is incorrect based on any ancient m****cript or even the JST? Correct?

---Contemporary English Version:

Footnotes:
Luke 23:43 paradise: In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, this word is used for the Garden of Eden. In New Testament times it was sometimes used for the place where God's people are happy and at rest, as they wait for the final judgment.

Are all Bibles in agreement over what the Greek word paradeisos means?

New Century Version Footnotes:
paradise-- Another word for heaven.

From Blue Letter Bible:

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven


How sure are you that the definition YOU believe in, is the correct one? Seems that real Bible experts aren't even sure.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Luke 23:43 (Contemporary English Version)
43Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise." [a]

Footnotes:
Luke 23:43 paradise: In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, this word is used for the Garden of Eden. In New Testament times it was sometimes used for the place where God's people are happy and at rest, as they wait for the final judgment.

I am not sure how you think that this explains that the translation of the ancient m****cript was incorrect. Especially given the fact that the JST is consistent with the official LDS KJV Bible which states Paradise. Do you know something that the the translators of the Bible did not know OR that Joseph Smith didn't know? Is this based on your personal revelation?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure how you think that this explains that the translation of the ancient m****cript was incorrect. Especially given the fact that the JST is consistent with the official LDS KJV Bible which states Paradise. Do you know something that the the translators of the Bible did not know OR that Joseph Smith didn't know? Is this based on your personal revelation?

Isn't this the place that Jesus took captive as He gave gifts to men? Doesn't Paul tell us that his ***urance was to be with Jesus when he died? Is not Jesus sitting at the right site of the Father? Is not the Father in heaven? Seems to me all this is sat aside by mormonism because it doesn't match up with the lies of Joseph Smith.. Why believe the Bible when you have a living prophet? It's all so blasphemous.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

How sure are you that the definition YOU believe in, is the correct one? Seems that real Bible experts aren't even sure.

My beef with Mesenja was not necessarily with several points that he brought up in prior posts, some of which I actually happened to agree with, which I have already given several reasons in other older posts that explain my position if he would of even bothered to go back and read. The disagreement was in his attempt to change a very clear Bible verse because it did not conform to his preconceived theology. Thus the whole reason for the supposedly mistranslated verse was not because of mistranslation of ancient m****cripts or because of revelation by Joseph Smith in his JST but simply because it did not agree with his expected theology. In addition to this he quoted the LDS Bible Dictionary which is not even considered scripture by you or him.

An example to help illustrate my point. Here are several facts for this example

1. I am wearing a red shirt
2. I am wearing blue pants
3. I am wearing white shoes

Mesenja's preconceived idea is that I am wearing a blue shirt. Because of his preconceived ideas that I am wearing a blue shirt his argument would likely be. You are not wearing a red shirt, that is mistaken despite the fact that this is clearly a known fact. Maybe your white shoes are reflecting the sun off of your blue pants giving an optical illusion that your shirt is red but in reality it is clearly blue.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure how you think that this explains that the translation of the ancient m****cript was incorrect.

---I am not sure you are familiar with Bible Translation 101: Some words are transliteratations of the foreign word, not translations. Examples include apostasy (from apostasia) and apostle (ultimately from apostolos) and paradise (ultimatey from paradeisos) .

I didn't say that the ancient ms was incorrect. But I am willing to say that some of you Self-Appointed Attackers of the LDS have a defective understanding of what the word MEANS.

Here is Merriam-Webster:

1. a : eden

b : an intermediate place or state where the souls of the righteous await resurrection and the final judgment

c : heaven

Note that "heaven" is not the primary definition of paradise. It's not even the secondary definition of it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-- But I am willing to say that some of you Self-Appointed Attackers of the LDS have a defective understanding of what the word MEANS.

But yet it is still the same word not a different word. That is the point. If the word is red then the word is red not blue even if you are color blind.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

My beef with Mesenja was not necessarily with several points that he brought up in prior posts,some of which I actually happened to agree with,which I have already given several reasons in other older posts that explain my position if he would of even bothered to go back and read.

The disagreement was in his attempt to change a very clear Bible verse because it did not conform to his preconceived theology. Thus the whole reason for the supposedly mistranslated verse was not because of mistranslation of ancient m****cripts or because of revelation by Joseph Smith in his JST but simply because it did not agree with his expected theology. In addition to this he quoted the LDS Bible Dictionary which is not even considered scripture by you or him.

An example to help illustrate my point. Here are several facts for this example

1. I am wearing a red shirt
2. I am wearing blue pants
3. I am wearing white shoes

Mesenja's preconceived idea is that I am wearing a blue shirt. Because of his preconceived ideas that I am wearing a blue shirt his argument would likely be. You are not wearing a red shirt, that is mistaken despite the fact that this is clearly a known fact. Maybe your white shoes are reflecting the sun off of your blue pants giving an optical illusion that your shirt is red but in reality it is clearly blue.

Either reconcile your doctrines about salvation with what Jesus taught concerning our final judgment or just don't waste my time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"] Note that "heaven" is not the primary definition of paradise. It's not even the secondary definition of it.

If you or Mesenja would have read any of my posts on this subject you would probably have a better idea of my position. First the word is Paradise NOT Spirit Prison which is where you think that the thief would of been sent (per LDS theology). Second those who died prior to the death and resurrection of Christ went to Hades not with God the Father. Why? Because Christ had not paid for the penalty for sin yet, they could not be in the presence of a Holy God. Hades was divided into to two sections: one for the righteous and a separate area for the unrighteous. The area for the righteous has a couple of names, one was Abraham's bosom or Paradise. When the thief died after Christ but before Christs' resurrection he went to the Paradise side of Hades. After the resurrection Christ took the Paradise section and those in it directly to Heaven. When those have faith in Christ today (post resurrection of Christ) they go directly to live with the Father.

Below is my post from May of this year that discussed this very issue.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Hey Novato. Prior to the resurrection of Christ the dead were separated into two separate locations as noted in Luke 16 (The Rich Man and Lazarus). I don't usually cut and paste but I am going to cut and paste in efforts to answer your question which is explained towards the end of the quote by Charles Swindoll. (Note the second highlighted sentence by Swindoll "He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven." would have to occur after John 20:17 that you noted in your quote, i.e. after his resurrection.)


http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html
Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.
Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"

Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such p***ages as Psalm 16:10-11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.”
end of cut and paste.


LDS perspective
Lets look at it from the LDS point of view of Paradise and Spirit Prison. According to this quote from the recent Gospel Principles the thief would likely have gone to Spirit Prison NOT Paradise because his ordinances were not done. Some LDS say that his ordinances could of been done the day of his death or that he was already baptize prior to his death but I think that this is a stretch and simply grasping to twist things to match their theology.


“Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World,” Gospel Principles, (2009),240–44
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

First the word is Paradise NOT Spirit Prison which is where you think that the thief would of been sent (per LDS theology).

--That is not what I believe. I think there is a definite possibility that the theif went to the PARADISE side of the world of departed spirits, also known as hades. He is probably there right now, waiting for Resurrection Day and Judgment Day, and if he has been faithful to the end, he will end up in God's kingdom. If you think he is in God's presence right now, because you think Ressurection and Judgment Day already came and went, then I think you have a defective eschatology.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I think there is a definite possibility that the theif went to the PARADISE side of the world of departed spirits, also known as hade

“Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World,” Gospel Principles, (2009),240–44
Spirit Prison
The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise."

But note from the Gospel Principles quote ("If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise"), that certain things are required (according to LDS theology) prior to entrance into Paradise which would of not likely been done that day. Second the quote from Mesenja out of the LDS Bible dictionary stated ". . . the fact that the thief was not ready for paradise."

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No you have not answered those questions. I am interested in hearing what you have to say.

I've already said that it was besides the point whether the verse in question is translated correctly.