No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your sentence implies that if the devils had faith in Christ AND works then they would be saved.

--Duh--If--instead of rebelling against God and trying to remove Him from His throne--they WOULD HAVE HAD faith that His plan was a good one, and done something GOOD with that faith, they wouldn't be in the trouble they're in now, I would guess. But that's the "LDS Christian" in me talking....

Note Father JD's comment which addresses the same point.

---Yes, I noted his conjectures that come from ***umptions based on vague Bible verses. The Cons***ution guarantees his right to invent entire fictional species of creatures in heaven, so I would not presume to stop him from doing so.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

James is teaching that a salvific FAITH will be demonstrated BY WORKS. If there are NO works which accompany "said" faith,it isn't faith at all,but called by him as a "dead faith".

James is using the word justification in verse 21 to mean a demonstration or vindication. Then in verse 23 he switches the meaning of the word justification to mean God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous before God. Finally in verse 24 he reverts back to his original usage of the word justification as being a demonstration or vindication.


Quote:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified [i.e. vindicated] by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says,"AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified [i.e. vindicated] by works and not by faith alone for it only vindicated him.

James used the word justification to also mean a demonstration or vindication and not a justification as Paul consistently used the term. As the grammar in verse 24 would require that this definition must serve as a referent for both faith and works James would be making the argument that a man is vindicated both by works and faith which would cease to make faith that which justified Abraham before God.

Bottom line, M is that James is giving a DESCRIPTIVE p***age. Works do NOT justify as a CAUSAL AGENT. Otherwise, you've got James CONTRADICTING PAUL. Do you understand that?

24 You see that a man is justified [i.e. vindicated] by works and not [i.e. vindicated] by faith alone for it only vindicated him.

It's FAITH ALONE which justifies, but it is a FAITH which is NEVER ALONE. You still don't understand this, M.

[Mesenja]

The apostle James is making a three part argument that having faith in God is not enough. Works must be add to faith as a demonstration of our willingness to do all that God requires of us for righteousness. He starts the defense of this premise by asking the rhetorical question,"What doth it profit,my brethren,though a man say he hath faith,and have not works? can faith save him?"

Then he gives a hypothetical example of a brother or a sister being "naked,and des***ute of daily food" with the response of the Christian being,"Depart in peace,be ye warmed and filled";notwithstanding that they are not given "those things which are needful to the body." He answers his own question in the negative by saying,"What doth it profit? Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead,being alone."


In the second part of his argument James is also speaking in the hypothetical by using the form of an argumentative dialogue between two imaginary opponents. This debate is started by the first debater with this challenge,"Yea,a man may say,Thou hast faith,and I have works:shew me thy faith without thy works,and I will shew thee my faith by my work." The ***umption is made here that the first debater is asking his opponent to show his "faith without thy works."

The use of this extreme negative case of saying "Thou believest that there is one God;thou doest well:the devils also believe,and tremble" is not to contrast the faith of demons and the faith of Christians. It is to highlight the plausible alternative of those Christians who take care of the physical needs of his brothers and sisters against those whose only response is to say "Depart in peace,be ye warmed and filled".

The point being made here is that just as demons believe in God and are condemned so to a Christian stands under the same condemnation not by any refusal to acquiesce to his faith in God and salvation but through a refusal to add works to this faith.


In the third and final part of his argument he uses the example of Abraham who was "justified by works,when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" seeing how "how faith wrought with his works,and by works was faith made perfect" He finishes his argument that faith and works are an indispensable unit working together in our justification by giving the example of Rahab by asking "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works,when she had received the messengers,and had sent them out another way?"

[Father_JD]

I agree for the most part except you still don't understand it isn't a case of a Christian who makes a REFUSAL, but of one who SAYS or THINKS he's a Christian, but the paucity of works SAYS OTHERWISE. So what makes you think your cut and paste supports Mormon dogma?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I agree for the most part except you still don't understand it isn't a case of a Christian who makes a REFUSAL,but of one who SAYS or THINKS he's a Christian,but the paucity of works SAYS OTHERWISE. So what makes you think your cut and paste supports Mormon dogma?

In the example that James gives of a Christian who sees a brother or sister in the gospel "naked,and des***ute of daily food" and the response to this is saying to them "Depart in peace,be ye warmed and filled" will their faith alone save them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

. . .will their faith alone save them?

What faith?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

In the example that James gives of a Christian who sees a brother or sister in the gospel "naked,and des***ute of daily food" and the response to this is saying to them "Depart in peace,be ye warmed and filled" will their faith alone save them?

Not at all. Because James is teaching such ones HAVE NO REAL FAITH AT ALL!! Real FAITH is demonstrated by WORKS...otherwise it is DEAD as James wrote.

Listen again (for about the millioneth time...and I'm exagerating only a little...), M:

Faith ALONE saves, but a saving Faith is NEVER ALONE.

Are you beginning to understand, M? Finally?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

James is teaching that a salvific FAITH will be demonstrated BY WORKS. If there are NO works which accompany "said" faith,it isn't faith at all,but called by him as a "dead faith".

Bottom line,Mesenja is that James is giving a DESCRIPTIVE p***age. Works do NOT justify as a CAUSAL AGENT. Otherwise,you've got James CONTRADICTING PAUL. Do you understand that?

It's FAITH ALONE which justifies,but it is a FAITH which is NEVER ALONE. You still don't understand this,Mesenja.

Bottom line Father JD you haven't given a re****al. I understand the Protestant position. Finding any justification for it is more problematic for my understanding.

James and Paul are not only using Abraham as an example for justification they are citing the exact same p***age. My question to you is the following, Was Abraham justified or vindicated when when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What faith?

James tells the saints not to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ with an at***ude of personal favoritism.

James 2:1 (New American Standard)

The Sin of Partiality

1 My brethren,do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an at***ude of personal favoritism.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Not at all. Because James is teaching such ones HAVE NO REAL FAITH AT ALL!! Real FAITH is demonstrated by WORKS...otherwise it is DEAD as James wrote.

Listen again (for about the millionth time...and I'm exaggerating only a little...),Mesenja:

Faith ALONE saves,but a saving Faith is NEVER ALONE.

Are you beginning to understand, Mesenja? Finally?

The apostle Paul said that "if I have all faith,so as to remove mountains,but do not have love,I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2) The faith that Paul was referring to was "faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6) More specifically it was our "work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father." (1 Thessalonians 1:3)

[Father_JD]

Is Paul really talking about the possibility of a REAL faith which isn't demonstrated by works? No. You guys simply don't "get it", jeff. Ever hear of parallelisms or hyperbole? Figures of speech????

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Ever hear of parallelisms or hyperbole? Figures of speech????

--Why yes, as a matter of fact: Like when Jesus said He and His Father are one, or that God is spirit. A figure of speech, not intended to be taken literally. Right? What's that--you're saying no? But haven't you ever heard of hyperbole or figures of speech or metaphors? Did your coconut-induced amnesia have a relapse? Maybe you shouldn't watch Gilligan's Island reruns so much....

[Mesenja]

To demonstrate that faith without works does not save us James gave the following hypothetical argument to those already having "faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" however showed "an at***ude of personal favoritism." At the start of this argument he asks the rhetorical question,"if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" He answers in the negative with the statement,"Even so faith,if it has no works, is dead,being by itself."

James 2:1,14-17

1 My brethren,do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an at***ude of personal favoritism.
14 What use is it,my brethren,if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them,"Go in peace,be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body,what use is that?
17 Even so faith,if it has no works,is dead,being by itself.

James never argued that a saving faith is qualified by our works which are only it's side effect. What he was making the argument for was that justification is due to our faith working together with our works,and as a result of the works,faith being perfected or completed.

James 2:20-24

20 But are you willing to recognize,you foolish fellow,that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works,and as a result of the works,faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says,"AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

These works are described by Paul as "faith working through love",our "work of faith" and also a "labor of love." (Galatians 5:6,1 Thessalonians 1:3)

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

James is teaching that a salvific FAITH will be demonstrated BY WORKS. If there are NO works which accompany "said" faith,it isn't faith at all,but called by him as a "dead faith".

Demonstrated to whom Father JD? Our justification is always before God and never before men. James also never differentiated between a "saving" faith and a non saving or "dead faith". James is not making the distinction between two kinds of faith. Our works do not qualify the faith that we have turning it into a faith that justifies. He was speaking to those who championed the cause of justification by faith alone that their belief is no better then that of demons.

James 2:18-19

18 But someone may well say,"You have faith and I have works;show me your faith without the works,and I will show you my faith by my works."
19 You believe that God is one. You do well;the demons also believe, and shudder.

James said that what is needed for our justification is not only faith but a faith acting together with our works. Otherwise as I have previously stated our belief in God is no better then that of the demons.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

WHAT we DO is a result of WHO we ARE.

No what we do is a result of the choices that we make. James said that we are to follow the second greatest commandment and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF and "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." In the hypothetical scenario given by James this necessitates that we provide for a fellow brother or sister in the gospel who "is without clothing and in need of daily food." What follows is that like Abraham whose faith was working alongside his works we will be justified.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

The addressee of "God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" is directed TO BELIEVERS.

You are making a distinction without a difference. If by this you are making the argument that those who have faith will as a consequence produce good works then you have no case. James was speaking to those who had faith yet chose not to do good works.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Unbelievers do NOT have "faith" and can NEVER "please Him" in a reprobate state.

Once again you making a claim that is not supported by the Bible. Faith does not follow spiritual regeneration.

[James Banta]

JD, these mormons can't tell the differenc ebetween Salvation and reward.. These two are listed as totally seperate issues but still they mix them.. They even think we must prove what we are to the God of all creation to show Him what we are. Do we really have faith or is thta faith a sham.. The only way their god would know that is to show him.. But our God searches the heart and knows our deepest secrets (Psalm 44:21).. The mormons god has to see the fruit of our hands to know the faith that is in our hearts. I praise our Lord that he does know us as He does and loves us anyway.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Father JD,these Mormons can't tell the difference between salvation and reward. These two are listed as totally separate issues but still they mix them. They even think we must prove what we are to the God of all creation to show Him what we are. Do we really have faith or is that faith a sham. The only way their god would know that is to show him. But our God searches the heart and knows our deepest secrets (Psalm 44:21). The Mormon god has to see the fruit of our hands to know the faith that is in our hearts. I praise our Lord that he does know us as He does and loves us anyway. IHS Jim

i could not tell by your pompous and self righteousness post. Please address the arguments I made previously if you can.

[Father_JD]

Abraham was forensically JUSTIFIED in the sight of God when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac.

Abraham was VINDICATED in the sight of man when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac.

Answer your question?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Abraham was forensically JUSTIFIED in the sight of God when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac. Abraham was VINDICATED in the sight of man when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac.

Answer your question?

Is it your position that the apostle James taught that Abraham was only vindicated before men and not justified before God by his faith alone as his fellow apostle Paul taught when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac?

James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father vindicated by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
24 You see that a man is vindicated by works and not by faith alone.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

i could not tell by your pompous and self righteousness post. Please address the arguments I made previously if you can.

Yes I am pompous and self righteous because I see the Bible telling me that I am a complete and total sinner and have no place with God other than through Jesus.. How can I have such a self righteous at***ude as to believe that I can only be seen as righteous through the works of Jesus.. Are you mad? I am saying that I am saved by Him completely and totally not by works I have done.. Whereas Mormonism teaches that we are save by God's grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. That is self righteousness.. You can do things that make yourself acceptable to God.. And you call me pompous and self righteous.. That is complete and utter GALL..

I addressed no answer to you at all if you wish to ask me a question do so.. If I was to post to father_JD I will do so if I wish.. You can comment on what I say but don't expect everything I say to be about you..

Now is I were to tell someone who asked me who James says we should demonstrate our works to I would say toward other Christians. After all James said that is who his works were there to be seem by. He said, "show ME your faith without your works and I will show YOU my faith by my works (James 2:18).. And how about the devils what is it that they believe? Look for once instead of just using the verse to support your pet doctrine..

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Do you believe that God is One? Or do you believe like Joseph Smith taught that there are three Gods? See mormonism doesn't even teach as much as the devils know. That The Lord our God is ONE LORD (Deut 6:4).. Until you conform your faith in God to knowing as much as the devils KNOW you don't need to worry about good works.. After all the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaches that salvation is by God's grace not by work so we can't do what you are doing, boasting of your piety.. God does whoever prepares good works for those that have been saved by His grace to walk in.

These works are between me and my LORD. He has said that when I do good works I should allow my left hand know what my right hand is doing.. That God who sees what I do in private will reward me openly.. With that authority I will say that Yes I have works that God the Holy Spirit has directed me to do, and no I will not explain further to you or anyone than that admission.. I call on you to follow the admonition of James rejecting the teachings of Smith and believe
that God is one Lord.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Is it your position that the apostle James taught that Abraham was only vindicated before men and not justified before God by his faith alone as his fellow apostle Paul taught when he performed the near-sacrifice of Issac?

No, James is saying that Abraham was forensically justified by faith and that this faith was vindicated by his works.

[Mesenja]

What I got was the following broad and overreaching answer. I wasn't asking you how James was making the argument for works and faith as it relates to our justification for the entire chapter.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No,James is saying that Abraham was forensically justified by faith and that this faith was vindicated by his works.

What I asked you was how James used the word justify in a specific instance that being the following verse.

James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Did he mean to say here that Abraham was forensically justified by faith before God or only vindicated by his works before men? A yes or no answer being all that is required here.


Vindicated before whom Father JD? There is no scriptural warrant for you to say that we are ever justified before men. When Abraham took Isaac up the mountain to be sacrificed he was justified before God and not before men. Abraham's servants who went with him were told to wait at the bottom of the mountain.

Genesis 22:3,5

3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey,and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son;and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
5 Abraham said to his young men,"Stay here with the donkey,and I and the lad will go over there;and we will worship and return to you."

Genesis 22:10-12

10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham !" And he said, "Here I am."
12 He said,"Do not stretch out your hand against the lad,and do nothing to him;for now I know that you fear God,since you have not withheld your son,your only son,from Me."

Abraham displayed faith when he took his family and went to the land that God would show him. This is the same faith that justified Abel,Enoch and Noah as God is the rewarder of those who seek to do His will.

Genesis 12:1-5

1 Now the LORD said to Abram,"Go forth from your country,And from your relatives And from your father's house,To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you a great nation,And I will bless you,And make your name great;And so you shall be a blessing ;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
4 So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him;and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Hebrews 11:8

8 By faith Abraham,when he was called,obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance;and he went out,not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:4-7

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain,through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous,God testifying about his gifts,and through faith, though he is dead,he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP;for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him,for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen,in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebrews 11:6

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him,for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

[Mesenja]

edit

The apostle James asked if Abraham was justified by his works. Please answer his rhetorical question with a yes or no answer.

James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

In our eyes he was, BUT in God's eyes Abram was justified by his faith in God (Gen 15:6).. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

In our eyes he was,BUT in God's eyes Abram was justified by his faith in God (Genesis 15:6). IHS Jim

The first is that nowhere in the New Testament does it say that other men are the determiners of our justification.

The second is that both James and Paul use the same verse,Genesis 15:6,for their argument as to how Abraham was justified and must by necessity offer the same interpretation,or they would be contradicting each other.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

In our eyes he was,

--Does your Bible really have the phrase "In our eyes he was" ?? Or are you adding your beliefs to make the Bible say what it reallly did NOT say?
What plagues did John pronounce on anyone who would add to the Bible?