The Calvinist-Arminian debate

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

False. Nobody except Christ can keep all of the commandments.

and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and that is why all my children go to Sunday school to learn about the "10 Suggestions"...


ha,ha, ha...

I dont think so Billy.

I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know so Alan. Your belief that a man can obey the commandments perfectly and live a life just like Christ is absolutely false. The only person that has done this is Christ.

Of the 10 Commandments, what number is the one that God told us clearly that man was not expected to keep but was just God's little suggestion and He was never all that serious about the issue?...LOL

Here is a question for you to chew on.
According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Of the 10 Commandments, what number is the one that God told us clearly that man was not expected to keep but was just God's little suggestion and He was never all that serious about the issue?...LOL

We are commanded to keep them all. But we can't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Here is a question for you to chew on.
According to JOHN 14:15 what is the sign you love Christ?

Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you keep ALL of the commandments and live a life free from sin?

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider behavior of your Billy to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

Alan I guess for you it is easier to run rather than admit you are wrong. You did this same thing on the CARM "Arminian verses Calvinism--Free Will" thread when Theo was pinning you to the wall. So it is not just me that has tried to expose your error. Maybe some day you will see your error.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . .as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I hate to tell you this Alan but I don't consider having a conversation with you to be a reward.

[alanmolstad]

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have appeared *


The Free Will issue....



One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will, and that while we do have this gift, , the free Will we have operates well within the sovereignty of God over creation.


The Bible gives us a very clear example of how our freedom/ability/power to carry out our own wills is always yet under the sovereignty of God.

The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
He could let him go
He could send him to his death.
It was only Pilate's call to make.

No one was there that had any real power at all to force what decision was to happen.
Pilate could ***ign values to things to understand that he and he alone could value this or that more highly that other things as he thought about what he was about to do.

This is how we all see our human free will.

This is the very heart of the call the Christian puts out for people to "repent" and draw closer to God though Christ.
Unless we had this type of ability to make our own decisions, there would be no need, no point in asking people to repent.

So that is how Free Will is understood and taught in the Bible...

Next we will read the words of Christ as he shows us how God's Sovereignty works with Free Will.

John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

In the last part of the verse Jesus reminds us that we still will suffer for our sins, no matter the Sovereignty of God over creation.
That we and we alone are responsible for our actions, and they when we sin we face a Judgement for our sins.

And to sum it up?
All that I believe of Free Will is in full agreement with Dr Walter Martin as shown here - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

One of the central ideas of the Christian faith is the idea that we have Free Will. . .

what verses teach that we are free to do anything we please whenever we please?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

* Posted this on wrong topic, here it is as it should have ap
The example I speak of is found at JOHN 19:10
This verse and the one after it shows us clearly how both Free Will and God's sovereignty work in our lives.

""Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
This is human free will at work.
Pilate had the total free will to do what he wanted with Jesus.
...........
John 19:11
"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.

Here we see how Human Free Will does not confront the Sovereignty of God at all.
The Free Will of Pilate is within the rule and control of God at all times....yet is never squashing the human free will at any time.

The fact that Jesus never once contradicts Pilate shows us that Jesus knew Pilate had the free will to do whatever he wanted.
But Jesus does point out the fact that God's Sovereignty is beyond human free will to counteract.
that human free will is a GIFT from God!

.....

I think a lot of people that argue from the lunatic ends just read only one side of the conversation between Jesus and Pilate and don't catch the true meanings.

What is going on in their conversation is the very heart of the whole free will/Sovereignty debate.

The verses are all the proof that we need to prove that Man has free.
The verses are all we need to also prove that God is sovereign.
Both ideas are at work in the story.\Both are in effect and yet we never are to believe there is any confrontation between the two ideas.

[alanmolstad]

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

All that God asks of us is within our ability to do.
If it were not within our ability then there would be no point in asking us to do it.

Another thing to keep in mind....If we are totally unable to do something that God has commanded us to do, then there would be no way for God to legitimately judge us for failing to do what he asked.

God could never send anyone to Hell for failing to keep his Commandments if we were unable to keep them.
it is only because there is nothing about the Commandments that is beyond our ability to keep that God has the legitimate right to judge us for failing to keep them.

What we have to always remember however, is that the "ABILITY" to do something is not the same as the "LIKELIHOOD" to do it.

All of us have the "ability" to lead a sinless life and fulfill all the things that god might ask us to follow.
There is nothing out of reach for any of the Laws and Commandments that appear in the Bible.
There is no hard math involved.
No super-duper hard mountain to climb.
No heavy rock we have to lift and carry.

But the fact that we all know we have the "ability" to keep all the law does not make it "Likely" at all that we could do so day after day....LOL

It's like...
(a true story)
It's like the time I invited a friend to come to church with me and my wife.
I knew this friend was trapped in a lot of false teachings, and his faith life was at a dead end.
So i invited him to church with us in the hope that he might be moved by the Alter Call at the end, and walk forward.

But he just sat though the Alter call and that was that.

Now did he have the ability to step out and go forward?>....yes!
I made sure we sat near the front, so it was not a long walk.
I made sure he sat on the end so there was no one in his way.
He has two strong legs and so i knew he could walk forward when the Alter Call was made to do so.

So my friend had the "ABILITY" to answer the Alter Call.
But just having the ability does not mean it's going to be "LIKELY'' .

Its the same with all that God asks us to do.
We have the ability to do what is asked....but it's not very likely to be sure that we will always do it.

So the Law of God was never meant to be a trick question.

[alanmolstad]

about this recording - http://www.besked.se/audio/WM_EC31_1.mp3

Although I had listened to tons of recordings of Walter Martin over the years, and I never missed a radio show, to tell the truth I did not actually know what Walter's views on this topic were when I first started posting my own here.

So I was a bit nervous when I clicked on that link to listen to what he taught, knowing that if Walter Martin disagreed with me that I would be forced to share that information with others too, and due to my respect of all that Martin taught I would have to spend some time on my own thinking about what he was saying.

However, as I listened to this short recording I was struck by how Walter was taking the words right out of my mouth!...LOL

He and I are in total agreement on the errors of Calvinism!

I have tried to search out and find more recordings of Walter Martin teaching on this same issue of the errors of Calvinism, but mostly i just keep finding YouTube videos of his debates with the CULTS and stuff like that.


Now that I found this one little recording i plan to hang on to it and use it in a lot of my posts, because of the respect most Christians have of Martin, and the fact that this whole website is created in his memory.

No one would even be here in the first place unless they understood the importance of the work of Walter Martin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God NEVER asks me to do something I am unable to do....(God is not a moron)

Alan, can you obey the commandments perfectly and live a life like Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Does God ever ask a person to do things the person is unable to do?......

The answer is....no!

Actually Alan the answer is yes. You are completely wrong on this one.

[alanmolstad]

By the way, if anyone reading this knows of other places where Walter Martin spoke on this topic I would enjoy having a chance to go over that too.



So far I have had no luck in finding a short recording of Martin speaking on this issue.
He may have taught on the topic as part of a longer sermon on the CULTS.....but that may be had to find now and he p***ed away before the internet and Youtube got cooking, so everything he spoke about has to be uploaded now later by interested persons.

[alanmolstad]

Again, to make sure you understand...
I do not place people on my IGNORE LIST because they ask questions, or because they disagree with me, or because they are in a CULT or because they are a different religion or color or from a different country.

But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.
This is why there are only 2 names on my IGNORE list.

Once a person gets on my IGNORE LIST I believe I am better off not reading their posts from then on.
This is the only form of "correction" I can bring to people.
I can refuse to read their words....

Now there is one way off my IGNORE list and that is if i see someone who is on my IGNORE LIST has been banned by the owner of the forum.

It is my personal view that once a person's behavior has gotten so bad that it caused the owner of the forum to actually take the step to BAN them that i should offer them the chance to come back having learned their lesson.

It is my way of supporting the actions of the forum's owner as she attempts to get people to show better manners on the message board.

Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.

Until then?...........nice try, but nope you are still not being read.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider your behavior Billyray to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But I only place people on my IGNORE LIST after I have warned them over and over about showing bad manners, or breaking the forum rules.

Alan who are you kidding? When you get backed into a corner you ignore the messenger. This is obvious here and it was obvious on the CARM board.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Reading my posts should be seen as a type of reward for changing your behavior, just as returning to read YOUR POSTS is a reward for you posting with correct manners.

Alan reading your posts are not a reward but more like slow torture. It pains me to read your false doctrine while at the same time your refusing any feedback to your falsehoods.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I should tell you and any reading this why I have no been reluctantly forced to place you on my "IGNORE list"

You ask the same questions over and over.
Its no fun at all to try to have a conversation with someone who just simply says the same thing over and over without allowing the conversation to flow normally.

I consider behavior of your Billy to be bad manners.

I consider my own posts to be worth people taking the time to read, but when it becomes clear that im dealing with a person who is not actually interested in a real conversation, then I put their names on my IIGNORE list forever..

unless you get your **** banned by the forum owner again...

in that case, (If I once again see you listed as Banned) then I will take your name off my IGNORE list with the idea that you may have learned your lesson and as a reward you should be allowed to once again try to have a normal conversation with me.

I will also see about using the IGNORE setting at the other forums where you and i might accidentally bump into each other....(why drag that out)


take care....

The other day I watched a person get all upset over what another member of this forum had posted...
This reminded me of an issue from a month or so ago where once again a member of this forum could not understand why someone was even allowed to post on a Christian site because they kept posting the same stuff over and over?

My response to these types of situations is to remember that we each have the ability to place someone we don't like on our IGNORE list.
This has been the way in the past I ended bickering with members.
I simply placed their name on my ignore list and that ended the matter, then and there.

Not another peep was heard out of the guy I put on IGNORE.
As far as i was concerned, I have totally BANNED the guy from my screen.

It works like a charm.
I have also learned over the years that people that get put on other's ignore list don't tend to stick around much longer.

The constant reminder that their words will no longer be able to be seen gets to a person after a while, and they tend to go somewhere else to try to start all over.

They must feel like they burned their bridges here, and so move on to new ones.

So in very real ways, putting someone on your ignore list tends to help get rid of someone you don't like around.