Originally Posted by
Russianwolfe
Yes, the document is Egyptian. But I am talking about the Book of Abraham where the names you refer to comes from. And this book tells the story of Abraham. And where does the story of Abraham start?
In "Chaldea", WHICH NAME DID NOT EXIST at the time of Abraham. Obviously Smith did not know that, or else he would not have put that name into Abraham's pen. Furthermore, the idols themselves are NOT Chaldean, but EGYPTIAN, and there is no evidence of any mention of "Elkinah", "Libnah", "Mahmackrah" or "Korash" in the Chaldean language or mythology, just as they do not exist in Egyptian. They are clearly nothing more than the products of Smith's imagination.
Even the Bible agrees with me, the story of Abraham starts in Ur of the
Chaldees.
ugh... Okay, pay attention. The story of Abraham took place BEOFRE there ever was a "Chaldea". That term did not appear until AFTER Abraham was long dead, and thus Smith's attribution of the term to Abraham, is just another manifestation of his total ignoran ce of the history of the region. Smith saw the term in the Bible and thought it must have existed in Abraham's day. But ...Genesis was not written in Abraham's day, Marvin. It was written by MOSES in Moses' day, over 400 years LATER, when there was a land known as "Chaldea" and a language known as "Chaldee". The appearance of the term in the BoA is a total anachronism, as are the appearances of several other terms.
And the Book of Abraham chapters are summarized below
It tells the story of Abraham which starts in Ur of the Chaldees.
...Which was not known by that name in Abraham's day. Therefore what you have is a FIRST CENTURY AD Egyptian document, putting terms from 2,000 BC into the mouth of Abraham who lived 400 years before those terms even existed. Are you at least beginning to see the problem here?
It is only your ig-norance that is being contradicted here. You made the false claim that the gods mentioned are Egyptian gods. But examining the document that the names come from reveals that even the document itself identifies that place where Abraham is at the beginning is Chaldea or Chaldees. And the false priest is identified as being from Chaldea.
You have accused me of making a false claim. I challenge you to back that up by doing more than just puking up a programmed emotional response. I challenge you to actually SHOW US that this universally recognized EGYPTIAN document, (dating to the 1st C. AD) clearly portraying indisputable EGYPTIAN gods, well documented throughout EGYPTIAN literature, religion and mythology is ACTUALLY all about Chaldean deities (that ALSO have never been show to exist). Until you do, it will remain self-evident that it is YOU who is absolutely and totally ignoran t here.
And again, the land of "Chaldea" did not exist in Abraham's day - or actually was not known by that name in his day. Nor did the "Chaldee" language exist. Those are terms that developed long after Abraham was DEAD tracing to hundreds of years LATER. It is impossible for Abraham to have written about a people and a language that did not exist. Why can you not deal with such a simple FACT? Its because you know that this whole issue totally and completely DEBUNKS your entire religion.
But we aren't talking about that document. You are suppose to be talking about the Book of Abraham because that is where the names come from. The Book of Breathing facsimile is not the Book of Abraham. That has been the Church's stance ever since the document was returned to the Church in the early sixties.
We are talking about the very papyrus from which the facsimiles in your BOA were clearly copied. It is THAT document that we are talking about here. YOU had better start paying attention. If you ever expect to begin to develop some credibility here you had betterlearn how to identify the at least the document in question!!
And since Abraham is telling his story, what does the language or lack thereof have to do with the story that Abraham tells?
Because that language did not exist in Abraham's day!!
The truth of my claim is evident in the FACT that you cannot even begin to support your claims. All you can do, apparently, is whimper out stoopid, empty accusations like this one. Keep running, Marvin. Its what you Mormons do best.
When the Book of Abraham clearly identifies them as being Chaldean, it is no wonder that they cannot be identified as Egyptian.
Again the problems you are avoiding are these:
1.) There was no such thing as "Chaldean" in Abrham's day.
2.) The idols we are talking about have been indisputably identified as the well-known, thoroughly-documented EGYPTIAN mythical deities known as "“Qebehseneuf”, “Duamutef”, “Hapy” and “Imsety”. They appear all over Egyptian myth and are routinely observed in other "Breathing Permits" just as they appear in THIS one.
I refer you to THIS published article by LDS Egyptologist, Stephen Thompson. Read it and weep.
Here is a little taste of the doom of your religion:
The first such term, Chaldea, occurs in Abraham 1:1, and subsequently verses 8, 13, 20, 23, 29-30, and 2:4. The Chaldeans (Hebrew kasdim) were a people who spoke a West-Semitic language similar to Aramaic and who appeared in the ninth century B.C. in the land south of Babylonia, and appear to have migrated from Syria. Westermann has noted that the city of Ur could be qualified as "of the Chaldees" only from the tenth to the sixth centuries, in any case, not before the first millennium.
The second anachronistic word we encounter in the text is Pharaoh. In Abraham 1:6 we find "Pharaoh, king of Egypt." In Abraham 1:20 we are told that Pharaoh "signifies king by royal blood." There is one p***age in which the term is treated as a name, rather than as a ***le. In Abraham 1:25 we read "the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham."
It goes on to detail many other such anachronistic terms and ideas in your so-called "Book of Abraham", which your prophet is said to have "miraculously" translated from a universally recognized EGYPTIAN document.
...Why would there be Egyptian Gods in Chaldea?
As usual, you have it backwards. The correct question is, why would there be 1st century Egyptian deities mentioned in a 2,400BC Chaldean document?
Another false claim and false ***ertion by BrianH. Creating strawman arguments is not a worthy occupation by a Christian.
What is obvious to anyone who can read is that there is nothing false about it. Until you can answer my question above, it is evident that you (and your whole religion) are pretending to hide your inability to answer the original question of this thread by this utterly transparent evasion. Had you enough sense you would be embarr***ed by your own obvious total and complete ignoranc e of the fundamental FACTS here that so totally destroy your whole argument.
Once again, I have to thank Brianh for NOTHING.
Marvin
Just keep running, Marvin.
Just keep running. Maybe the day will come when your personal incapacity to deal with the facts will become as obvoius to YOU as they are to anyone who can at least read English, and at most, knows the basic facts of history that so clearly debunk your empty fantasies.
-BH
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