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Thread: The Thief

  1. #176
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Absolutely---you have to be blind not to see it.
    Lets look at the verse in context

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


    Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

  2. #177
    Billyray
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    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

    Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

    Is this speaking about physical birth or water baptism?
    Yes, you seem to want it to read---that which is born of the water is flesh. That is not what it says.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  4. #179
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, you seem to want it to read---that which is born of the water is flesh. That is not what it says.
    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?

  5. #180
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?
    It's speaking about the difference between Nicodemus' mistake of confusing the fleshly birth of entering the womb a second time, and Christ's being born again, of the water and the Spirit.

    Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    Could you explain for us the connection between the "newness of life", as Paul relates it to water baptism, and Christ's being "born again"?

  6. #181
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It's speaking about the difference between Nicodemus' mistake of confusing the fleshly birth of entering the womb a second time, and Christ's being born again, of the water and the Spirit.
    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Let me ask you again. Is this talking about physical birth or water baptism?

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jonn 3 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Is thus speaking about physical birth or water baptism?
    To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth. If Christ himself calls physical birth "flesh" then why would he not call it flesh beforehand?

    If you understand Hebrew---then it is because Christ is speaking to someone who knows what water represents to God---or the process of rebirth as given in my examples of the flood, parting the Red Sea, Christ himself being baptized and then the apostles teaching of baptism. Unless you want to argue that Christ was not baptized in water, I am not sure your point other than to look extremely narrow-minded in the symbolism of water and why it is used in baptism.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #183
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth. If Christ himself calls physical birth "flesh" then why would he not call it flesh beforehand?
    So is "born of flesh" physical birth or water baptism?

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So is "born of flesh" physical birth or water baptism?
    Billyray, you are not making your point---you are ignoring the many times water is used in Hebrew and exactly what it means. Nicodemus knew this and Christ spoke to him as someone who knows this....this is why when Nicodemus asked him "can I re-enter my mother's womb"--Christ responded "your a master in Israel and do not understand this?" Clearly, Nicodemus knew what baptism was and what it meant.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #185
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray, you are not making your point---
    you are refusing to answer a very simple question. Why is that?

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    you are refusing to answer a very simple question. Why is that?
    I answered your question, that is why (see post #182). But, once answered, you have refused to address that Christ refers to water when discussing spiritual rebirth, not physical rebirth as Nicodemus mistakes and should not have mistaken the meaning of water when it came to the Jews and what it symbolizes.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #187
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I answered your question, that is why (see post #182).
    OK good. Now lets look at all of the verses together

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    To say, born of the "flesh" is speaking of physical birth.
    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Looking at these three verses together what does born of water mean in context?

  13. #188
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    But, once answered, you have refused to address that Christ refers to water when discussing spiritual rebirth
    I have not refused to answer at all. In context of the surrounding verses born of water means physical birth.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I have not refused to answer at all. In context of the surrounding verses born of water means physical birth.
    Well, in the context of Jewish theology, water represents baptism. I guess in your belief system though, Christ was not aware of the past uses of water and its symbolism to the Israelite nation and therefore would use it to mean something entirely different.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  15. #190
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Well, in the context of Jewish theology, water represents baptism.
    So you just flat out ignore what is actually said in the verses. Nice.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you just flat out ignore what is actually said in the verses. Nice.
    Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  17. #192
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn.
    No you flat out ignore what is said.

  18. #193
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    --and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn.
    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And what does he say about it in this verse?

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And what does he say about it in this verse?
    Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.


    I will just keep repeating this I guess.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #195
    Billyray
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    Default What does it actually say J?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    --and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn.
    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And what does he say about it in this verse?

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And what does he say about it in this verse?
    Back to the hen-pecking, repeated questions. You want to equate being born of the flesh with being born of water---it doesn't say that or Christ would have just used flesh instead of water.

    So, once again:

    Nope---I don't ignore what it says--I just recognize it in the context of who Christ was talking to---a Jew---and that Christ was teaching Him of what it means to be reborn. Christ's line of what is born of the flesh is flesh is to tell Nicodemus that his understanding is wrong. Your correlation to being born of the flesh and being born of the water is strictly wrong. If Christ had meant what you think He said, He would have said---that a man must be born of the flesh and of the spirit---or he would have said that what is born of water is water and spirit is spirit. But He didn't do that for a reason.

    So, I guess for you---because of the way you interpret this---when the apostles told their converts to "repent and be baptized" that this was not because of something Christ taught---but because they sucked it out of their thumb. Okay.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #197
    Billyray
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    Default Tell me what this verse says J

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Back to the hen-pecking, repeated questions. You want to equate being born of the flesh with being born of water---it doesn't say that or Christ would have just used flesh instead of water.
    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    And what does he say about it in this verse?

  23. #198
    Billyray
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    Why do you think Christ says "born AGAIN"?

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you think Christ says "born AGAIN"?
    Well, it you read it through---he refers to the spirit as "wind" (also a common Jewish symbol) and that we only know where it is when it russles through the trees--but it started before it hit the trees and will go on after it hits the trees. And Christ says "Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven."

    The fall is a spiritual death and as such, what Christ is speaking of it being "spiritually born again" as we spiritually died when we fell (as Adam did). Likewise, we will be physically born again during the resurrection.

    So---according to this scripture:

    2Ki 2:11 And it came to p***, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

    Did Elijah come down from heaven?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #200
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The fall is a spiritual death and as such, what Christ is speaking of it being "spiritually born again"
    No he is not. In context we are physically born and then spiritually born (born again).

    John 3
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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