why do you run away from the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11 ?
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
You tend to try to focus only on the warning that paul gives at the start where he says that people that are guilty of the sin of Adultery do not enter into the Kingdom....
But you stop short there in your study of Paul's teaching on this and fail to go on to the next part where Paul tells us that we are not forever trapped in our sins...
But that is a reference to those who have repented of their sins.
Where do we find Abraham repenting of adultery?
Genesis 25---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Paul tells us that all the people that have committed the many sins he lists...(and its a big list and Im sure that Paul could have gone on and on and listed so many things that each of us can find our own slot on his list), and teaches us that we can be free of that stain in our future "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
In other words.,..God treats us as if we never sinned!
Its as if we never committed the sin,,,any sin...
It's all done away with...no repercussion at all with our past in the future kingdom.
that is why Abraham lives yet is clearly guilty of adultery...
In the same manner, I too live yet I am truly guilty of many sins....
We live because we have faith.....
Please do show us where the forgiveness of sins was given to anyone who refused to repent.
Again:
Where do we find Abraham repenting of adultery?
Genesis 25---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....
I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.
Im not saved because of my works....
Im not saved because I live a sinless life.
Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...
Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.
Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....
I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.
Im not saved because of my works....
Im not saved because I live a sinless life.
Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...
Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.
we live in faith....
That's all well and fine, Alan--but your accusation of Abraham being an adulterer presents some problems:
Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Unless, of course--you can show where Abraham repented of adultery.
And while you are at it--please inform us how God pronounced this upon Abraham--and contrast that with the fact you accuse him as being an adulterer:
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....
I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.
Im not saved because of my works....
Im not saved because I live a sinless life.
Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...
Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.
we live in faith....
That's all well and fine, Alan--but your accusation of Abraham being an adulterer presents some problems:
Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Unless, of course--you can show where Abraham repented of adultery.
And while you are at it--please inform us how God pronounced this upon Abraham--and contrast that with the fact you accuse him as being an adulterer:
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Paul tells us that all the people that have committed the many sins he lists...(and its a big list and Im sure that Paul could have gone on and on and listed so many things that each of us can find our own slot on his list), and teaches us that we can be free of that stain in our future "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
In other words.,..God treats us as if we never sinned!
Its as if we never committed the sin,,,any sin...
It's all done away with...no repercussion at all with our past in the future kingdom.
we are washed and made clean.....
Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Paul's words give people that are guilty of adultery (such as Abraham) hope of entering the kingdom!
Alan--as we have already discussed--the only ones who have hope are those who repent of such things.
Could you give us any scripture where Abraham repented of what you accuse him of--IE--adultery?
Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Alan--as we have already discussed--the only ones who have hope are those who repent of such things.
Could you give us any scripture where Abraham repented of what you accuse him of--IE--adultery?
.....
again, we are saved by what?....being sorry?
You think we are saved because we are sorry?
LOL....NO!
Listen, we are saved ONLY because of the following.
We are saved by grace THOUGH what_____?.......
grace though what____?
We are saved by grace though.......faith.
Not by works,
not by being sorry,,,
not by our actions...
We are saved only by grace though faith...
and the Bible says Abraham was righteous because of his what?......because of his what?....
Because he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness !
Its the same for me too...
Im not saved because I went under some water....
Im not saved because i joined the correct church
Im not saved because of any of my works...
Im not saved because I got caught in sin and now feel guilty
Im not saved because I feel sorry for my sins....
Im only saved because for the same reason Abraham was saved, and King david, and anyone in the christian church is saved...we all are saved by God's grace working though faith....and faith in His forgiveness.
As for Abraham's sins?...I trust God with the things such as that....
There is a lot of things not written in the Bible...just because its not written we cant then jump to the conclusion that it never happened...
EXAMPLE:
The Bible never says Jesus went to the bathroom, so are we to believe he never did, so we dont have to too?
Many people recall at once a few Old Testament instances of plural wives, and ***ume that God sanctioned polygamy. That ***umption is absolutely false! God has never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He FORBADE IT, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written STATUTE!
Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman.
Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous SIN. Although it renders it nonetheless a SIN, I think we can recognize extenuating circumstances.
Sarah was barren. For a wife in ancient times to go childless was felt to be a disgrace. It was Sarah, Abraham's own wife, who brought to Abraham her servant handmaid, asking him to produce a child for Sarah by this servant woman. We can imagine Hagar to have been attractive, and not necessarily lacking in voluptuous charms simply because she was a servant. That temptation, under these circumstances, at Sarah's instigation, might have been great. Certainly the very invitation coming from Sarah would have made it harder to resist.
Abraham was a strong man. But this temptation appears to have been stronger. All humans have sinned. Abraham was human. Abraham lied when he twice claimed Sarah was his sister, fearing for his own life.
Abraham was not without sin. But neither this adultery, nor the two lies, were sins of the nature that springs from a wrong at***ude of mind or heart. Abraham, in his heart, was always OBEDIENT to GOD. There was no spirit of hostility or rebellion. These sins were of the FLESH, under temptation -- not malicious or rebellious sins of the heart. But they were SINS! God forgave Abraham's sins of spiritual weakness, committed under heavy temptation.
Nevertheless, we all must REAP what we sow -- even though God forgives our sins upon repentance. God refused to approve this adulterous act of Abraham. He rejected the illegitimate son, Ishmael, from the birthright. This transgression produced jealousy between the women. It resulted in trouble, controversy, suffering.
How many realize that even the Arab-Jewish strife over Palestine, today, was brought on by this very THREE-CORNERED TRIANGLE, and the ensuing jealousy of the two women, Sarah and Hagar, over the one man, Abraham? The Jews are the children of Sarah, through Isaac, born later by a miracle. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael.
In Genesis 21:8-21 is the record of Hagar's departure from Sarah and Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away the concubine Hagar and her son, and Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Abraham had, after this, no more relations with Hagar, or his other concubine, Susanna, who is mentioned in the ancient Austrian Chronicle -- see Genesis 25:6 where you will read that Abraham's concubines' sons were sent away.
Sarah's death is recorded in Genesis 23:1-2. It was after that (Gen. 25), that Abraham married Keturah. This, of course, was a perfectly legal marriage. There was no polygamy -- no divorce.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are termed, in both Old and New Testaments, "the Fathers." Jesus Christ came to confirm the PROMISES made to "the Fathers." The unconditional promises God made to Abraham were repeated to both Isaac and Jacob.
You might want to relay that to the Biblical OT writers:
Genesis 16:1-3---King James Version (KJV)
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
Where I come from--a man with more than one living wife--is a polygamist.
Simple Definition of polygamy--Merriam Webster
: the state or practice of being married to more than one person at the same time
again, we are saved by what?....being sorry?
You think we are saved because we are sorry?
LOL....NO!
Listen, we are saved ONLY because of the following.
We are saved by grace THOUGH what_____?.......
grace though what____?
We are saved by grace though.......faith.
So--were they saved before the remission of sins?
Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
When you find the term "faith"--is that a faith with works--or a faith without works?
dberrie2000-- where does it say in the Bible that you are allowed to have affairs, multiple wives and concubines? Just because certain biblical figures did does not mean God's people are granted permission to do the same, especially when the Bible explicit;y forbids such practice. Then because the bible is silent on Abraham's and God's dealing of the issue does not mean it did not take place.
It is these words I want to draw people's attention to. Notice it does not say that he hearkened to the voice of God. No he listened to his wife over God which many men do all the time So God did not grant approval for this cultural move but used it for his will in the long run.
It is these words I want to draw people's attention to. Notice it does not say that he hearkened to the voice of God.
Yes, the Biblical record testifies Abraham obeyed the voice of God:
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
David--I'm not the one who accuses Abraham of adultery--you and Alan seem to follow that line.
So--how did Abraham escape Paul's condemnation?
Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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Originally Posted by alanmolstad
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