Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

[Libby]

I spent quite a bit of time in a response to you, Peter, but when I went to post it, I had been logged out. This board seems to log you out if your are not active for a few minutes. <sigh>

This is what I wrote (in essence - the short version).

First of all, I appreciate the link, but I had already read that, before I left the church. It was not very satisfying...but I'll admit, at that point, I was probably very difficult to satisfy. I didn't find his arguments relating Joseph's polygamy to "civil disobendience" very compelling...especially when he started comparing it to hiding Holocaust victims. But, when I have some time, I will go back and read it again. It's been a couple of years.

Secondly, I do not blame anyone in the church for my ignorance on any subject. I take total responsibility for that. I read the Book of Mormon and had an "experience" with it, which lead me, heart first, into the church. My head followed much later.

Thirdly, (if that's a word ) I have been attending an Evangelical Church for the past year and half, but right now I am not attending any church. I seem to always run up against the "really troubling issues" at some point or other. That's one of the reasons I stayed away from religious ins***utions for so many years, before my conversion to the LDS Church.

Lastly, I just wanted to say something that I have told a few of my LDS friends, recently. I am not an enemy of the LDS Church. I started down that path, shortly after I left the church, but it was not right for me. That's not to say it's not "right", at all...just not for me.

[seebok]

Hi Libby

Originally Posted by Libby

Secondly, I do not blame anyone in the church for my ignorance on any subject. I take total responsibility for that. I read the Book of Mormon and had an "experience" with it, which lead me, heart first, into the church. My head followed much later.

The Church of Jesus Christ teaches a "Holy Ghost first approach". If you now place your "head" first over the Holy Ghost, you missed an important epistemological lesson, namely, "reason" serves an important "ministerial" function, just not the "magisterial" one Father JD preaches.

There are many good reasons not to follow Father JD in his prideful error which elevates reason over and is dismissive of the Holy Ghost. I think the following general points adapted from scholar William Lane Craig are worth pointing out to you:

1) Following Father JD would deny the right of true faith to all who lack the ability, time, or opportunity to understand and ***ess the arguments and evidence. The consequences would no doubt consign untold millions of people who have faith in Christ to unbelief.
2) If one embraces Father JD's approach, those who have been presented with more cogent intellectual arguments against Christ than for him would have an excuse before God for their unbelief.
3) JD's view creates a sort of intellectual elite, a priesthood of philosophers and historians, who will dictate to the m***es of humanity whether or not it is rational for them to believe in the gospel. But surely faith is available to everyone why, in response to the Spirit's drawing, calls upon the name of the Lord.
4) JD's approach subjects faith to a vagaries of reason and the shifting sands of evidence, making Christian faith rational in one generation and irrational in the next.

I just don't understand why JD demeans the the Holy Ghost!? The Holy Ghost is our veridical evidence. JD's intellectual reason for belief which he sells here on WM is just pride.

Originally Posted by Libby

Lastly, I just wanted to say something that I have told a few of my LDS friends, recently. I am not an enemy of the LDS Church. I started down that path, shortly after I left the church, but it was not right for me. That's not to say it's not "right", at all...just not for me.

D&C 6: 22
22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

best

s.

[Libby]

The Holy Ghost is our veridical evidence. -Seekbok

I agree with this, but how do you explain those who say they have a Holy Spirit witness that the LDS Church is not true? How you know who is hearing/feeling the "real" Holy Spirit?

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with this, but how do you explain those who say they have a Holy Spirit witness that the LDS Church is not true? How you know who is hearing/feeling the "real" Holy Spirit?

Why question the Holy Spirit's witness if another mortal human contradicts what He witnesses to you? There is no reason to put another man's claims on the same level as revelation from God. That'd be silly wouldn't it?

love,
stem

[Libby]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Why question the Holy Spirit's witness if another mortal human contradicts what He witnesses to you? There is no reason to put another man's claims on the same level as revelation from God. That'd be silly wouldn't it?

love,
stem

It would be, yes, if you knew for sure that witness was from the Holy Spirit.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

It would be, yes, if you knew for sure that witness was from the Holy Spirit.

Would you suggest that you are one who says the Holy Spirit declared to you that the LDS Church is not authored by God?

love,
stem

[Libby]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Would you suggest that you are one who says the Holy Spirit declared to you that the LDS Church is not authored by God?

love,
stem

To be honest, I couldn't tell you that, for certain, right now...no.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

To be honest, I couldn't tell you that, for certain, right now...no.

To be honest I think its great you admit that.

love,
stem

[Libby]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

To be honest I think its great you admit that.

love,
stem

To be honest, I was going through a very tough time, spiritually, when I wrote that. I was even considering going back to the LDS church. But, that would not have been right for me and I do believe the Holy Spirit was very instrumental in helping me see that.

[nrajeff]

Libs, thanks for the note welcoming me back to that other place. (They won't let me remain for long, though.) I couldn't figure out how to send you a reply.

[Libby]

You're welcome. I was very surprised to see you posting there again, as I thought your ban had been permanent....but pleasantly surprised. I know clay was missing you, as well.

They don't have private messaging over there, anymore, but you can click on the person's name and leave a message that way. Anyone can read it, though.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

To be honest, I was going through a very tough time, spiritually, when I wrote that. I was even considering going back to the LDS church. But, that would not have been right for me and I do believe the Holy Spirit was very instrumental in helping me see that.

Since so many folks who most consider anti-Mormon whine the mantra "how do you know it was the Holy Spirit?" I am tempted to ask the same. But since describing the leading of the Holy Spirit is no as easy as it may seem I'll leave that alone. I thought I'd just comment since you speak as most LDS.

love,
stem

[Libby]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Since so many folks who most consider anti-Mormon whine the mantra "how do you know it was the Holy Spirit?" I am tempted to ask the same. But since describing the leading of the Holy Spirit is no as easy as it may seem I'll leave that alone. I thought I'd just comment since you speak as most LDS.

love,
stem

That would have been a fair question. Some of it has to do with not getting answers to questions, like I have asked on this thread. I'm sure some will consider that just a blatant lack of faith on my part. But, it's difficult to have faith in someone whose strange/possibly very immoral behavior cannot be explained.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

That would have been a fair question. Some of it has to do with not getting answers to questions, like I have asked on this thread. I'm sure some will consider that just a blatant lack of faith on my part. But, it's difficult to have faith in someone whose strange/possibly very immoral behavior cannot be explained.

I answered each one of your questions that started this thread. Straight up.

You don't have to have faith in Joseph himself.

love,
stem

[Russ]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I answered each one of your questions that started this thread. Straight up.

You don't have to have faith in Joseph himself.

love,
stem

When I asked Libby: were your questions addressed to your satisfaction by LDS who post on this forum?

She wrote, "No."

That's an unsatisfied customer who wants her money back.

And she wants to talk to the manager, now.

(Sorry, it's the customer service guy in me.)

[Libby]

Stem, you did try to answer my questions (and I appreciate that) but your answers were, basically, "I don't know".

And then, Seebok, in his usual ploy, simply tried to divert the argument to Luther and other historical Christians who supposedly did similarly awful things. That doesn't really explain Joseph. It explains why Seebok might not want to follow Luther, but it doesn't explain why he is following Joseph.

[Libby]

I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Libby

I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!

lol, Libby!

Exactly. 'Round and 'round. No direct answers.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rje0075l.jpg

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!

Well do your best not to enter into them...then. Follow Christ and stop looking at all the other deflections around. You can call that a blindfold if you want. I don't.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Libby

Stem, you did try to answer my questions (and I appreciate that) but your answers were, basically, "I don't know".

I know people whine about things like that. And they complain no one answered. I did my best. Since no one knows JS's heart your questions were unanswerable. Of course that's the easiest way to reject truth, I'd say. Cynically complain about the servants of God as though you know their motives.

And then, Seebok, in his usual ploy, simply tried to divert the argument to Luther and other historical Christians who supposedly did similarly awful things. That doesn't really explain Joseph. It explains why Seebok might not want to follow Luther, but it doesn't explain why he is following Joseph.

Too bad...I'm pretty sad. I think he likes to point out the hypocrisy in people's complaints more often than not.

love,
stem

[Russ]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Since no one knows JS's heart your questions were unanswerable. Of course that's the easiest way to reject truth, I'd say. Cynically complain about the servants of God as though you know their motives.

Any man who goes after other men's wives has a motive problem.

Joseph Smith took 11 wives of other men while they were still married.

This rightly bothers Libby. I wonder if you might explain to her why she shouldn't be troubled with such acts.

For me, "you shall know them by their fruits" comes to mind.

P.S. Why do you charge Libby with being cynical in her honest questions. Especially since you apparently believe that one cannot know the heart of another and their motives. You give that much slack to Joe Smith. Why not Libby?

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Russ

P.S. Why do you charge Libby with being cynical in her honest questions. Especially since you apparently believe that one cannot know the heart of another and their motives. You give that much slack to Joe Smith. Why not Libby?

No. I meant to suggest she can if she wants. I do not know her heart...true.

love,
stem

[Russ]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

No. I meant to suggest she can if she wants. I do not know her heart...true.

love,
stem

The fruits of a man's heart are sometimes found in his insistence that his celestial glory will be added to by marrying other men's wives.

Is this the type of man whom you think is inspired of God?

Smith - a charismatic man with a very good imagination (Book of Mormon).

What would you say to such a man if came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

What would you say to such a man if came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?

---Russ, what would YOU say if Jesus came to you and ordered you to do something that you felt in your heart was wrong? What would you say to Jesus?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Russ, what would YOU say if Jesus came to you and ordered you to do something that you felt in your heart was wrong? What would you say to Jesus?

I'd know it wasn't Jesus who asked me to marry other men's wives.

I'd rebuke that evil spirit in the name of Jesus.

I'd pay attention to Jesus' example with, "It is written...." and "Get behind me, Satan."