Religion built upon a god who failed.

[theway]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

As a Protestant--their horse race began here:

The Protestant Reformation: Revolution, Reaction, Reform


http://reformationrestoration.blogsp...evolution.html


In the 16th Century, the church was forever changed. The Catholic Church had drifted far away from the truth and was teaching very heretical doctrine, contrary to the Bible, the inerrant Word of God. The sacraments were not being properly administered, and people were actually buying their way into heaven. The church had even been corrupted from its core, the clergy. Pope Leo X was leading this indoctrination in the church and was ready to excommunicate anyone who got in his way. The future of the Catholic Church was in no way looking good. However, despite all the false doctrine and corruption, there was a man named Martin Luther. Martin Luther was a law student, who after a close encounter with death and God, decided to become a priest. Luther bought into all the lies that were being fed to him for a while, but soon began to question some of the things taught by the church. He especially questioned the selling of indulgences. He wrote a document called the “95 Theses” and nailed it to the church door. His 95 Theses stated all the problems with the Catholic Doctrine, especially the selling of indulgences. He nailed it to the church door because that was a way of ensuring that everyone would see it. In doing this, Martin Luther started a revolution, received a reaction from the church clergy, and ultimately reformed the church, creating the greatest historical landmark of the Protestant Church.

Martin Luther reformed the church. He did this by originally trying to fix the church, but when the church rejected his opinion, he began reforming the church to what he believed was the biblical view. He systematically went through changing and reforming the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Luther was an advocate of Augustinianism and his view of salvation. Luther was one of the earliest fathers of reformed theology. People like John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards would come after him and continue to contribute to the teachings of reformed theology, and even today, we have modern day reformers. Martin Luther taught the “Five Solas”. The Five Solas are: Sola scriptura (by scripture alone), Sola fide (by faith alone), Sola gratia (by grace alone), Solus Christus (by Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone). These five solas summarized most of the basic truths advocated by Luther and the later reformers. The reformation of the protestant church brought us a clear teaching of some of the hardest doctrines and concepts uncovered in the scriptures. Another thing Luther did, was translate the Bible into German. This made it possible for everyone to read the Bible and not be forced to believe all that the church taught them, they could actually read scripture and interpret it themselves. This was one of the reasons so many people followed Luther. Originally, they believed whatever the Catholic clergy told them, but now they could read the Bible themselves and it became very clear that a lot of what they had been taught was false. So clearly the reformation really helped the common man of the church. Also, Luther reformed the teachings of the Catholic Church restoring the biblical standard of theology.

Therefore, Martin Luther started a revolution, received a reaction from the church clergy, and ultimately reformed the church, creating the greatest historical landmark of the Protestant Church. This reformation was absolutely necessary and helpful to the church. The Catholic Church had gotten to a point where they were extremely heretical and actually teaching paganism in some of areas of Christian theology, and it desperately needed to be stopped. Martin Luther, along with many others, reformed and restored the church to the biblical standard.

There is just one error in this... The Protestant Fathers never "reformed any Church" the Orthodox Church rejected their attempts to reform it, and even called them heretics.
What the Protestants did was To start their own religion with their own doctrine.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

There is just one error in this... The Protestant Fathers never "reformed any Church" the Orthodox Church rejected their attempts to reform it, and even called them heretics.
What the Protestants did was To start their own religion with their own doctrine.

If you consider returning to the Christian faith and ITS doctrine to be 'start[ing] their own religion with their own doctrine' I pity you. They merely left a cult (catholicism) to come to Christianity. It would be like leaving mormonism to come to Christianity today. . .

Of course with YOUR world view and YOUR biases, you can't understand that.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

If you consider returning to the Christian faith and ITS doctrine to be 'start[ing] their own religion with their own doctrine' I pity you. They merely left a cult (catholicism) to come to Christianity. It would be like leaving mormonism to come to Christianity today. . .

Of course with YOUR world view and YOUR biases, you can't understand that.

Of course I understand that.... What you just described is called a RESTORATION!

[Christian]

Originally Posted by theway

Of course I understand that.... What you just described is called a RESTORATION!

And yet YOUR RELIGION would pretend those folks needed a SECOND RESTORATION.

Joey smith invented his new religion. NONE of his 'mormon specific junk' was ever believed or practiced by the first century church or "restored" to Christ's church by smith.

Joey 'restored' nothing. He INVENTED a bunch of horse dung though. His 'god was once a man' garbage was the some of the worst of it. So was his 'spirit brother of satan' 'jesus.' The sad reality is (for him anyway) is that the REAL Jesus CREATED satan, and was his CREATOR, NOT HIS BROTHER.

Your false prophet told you many lies.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

And yet YOUR RELIGION would pretend those folks needed a SECOND RESTORATION.

Joey smith invented his new religion. NONE of his 'mormon specific junk' was ever believed or practiced by the first century church or "restored" to Christ's church by smith.

Joey 'restored' nothing. He INVENTED a bunch of horse dung though. His 'god was once a man' garbage was the some of the worst of it. So was his 'spirit brother of satan' 'jesus.' The sad reality is (for him anyway) is that the REAL Jesus CREATED satan, and was his CREATOR, NOT HIS BROTHER.

Your false prophet told you many lies.

Oh I see..... So you believe Jesus, created, and hence was responsible for EVIL!
<mocking on> Yeah that makes a lot more sense <mocking off>

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff] no aaronic priesthood in the New Testament Church anywhere, no Melchizedek priests in the New Testament church besides [U][B]Jesus Christ Himself

What is your evidence this is not a reference to either the Aaronic nor Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

No 'restored gospel,' no lost scriptures, no loss of the authority for every Christian everywhere to speak for and act for God. No need for any of that 'new religion' at all

Then could you explain the need for the Reformation--where numerous new denominations--with a different theology--- were started?

For starters, our discussion should start with the Nature of God. Was he ever a man who became 'exalted?'

Yes--if we believe the Bible:

Acts 5:30-31---King James Version (KJV)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Do other REAL gods exist, does the REAL God even know of any?

Of course--if Paul knew--then God certainly does:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If He doesn't, how can Jesus be a 'separate god?'

The same way the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one god" of the Biblical NT:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[Christian]

berry posted:

What is your evidence this is not a reference to either the Aaronic nor Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

What is YOUR evidence that it is? GOD never said that it is. HE told us CHRISTIANS this in the Bible:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV

THIS priesthood of course includes ALL CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE, not just boys of 12 or older.

What is YOUR evidence THIS priesthood is not what is being referred to.

Then could you explain the need for the Reformation--where numerous new denominations--with a different theology--- were started?

In Christianity as a WHOLE? It was not needed. In the rcc (as in many of your religion's OTHER groups) corruption had occurred and needed 'fixing.' SOME folks LEFT in protest.

But despite the ignorance of joey smith and others, the rcc was NEVER all or even MOST of Christianity. Just because IT moved away from Jesus does not mean that CHRISTIANITY ever 'lost' anything beyond that INDIVIDUAL BODY.

Like your 'School of the Prophets' group that left the utah mormons some 35 years ago because they spoke with your mormon 'jesus' on a hillside and HE said YOUR group was corrupt. . .Did YOUR group 'lose' its doctrines or authority anywhere?

Likewise CHRISTIANITY never lost IT's gospel, doctrines, OR writings just because the rcc left it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

no aaronic priesthood in the New Testament Church anywhere, no Melchizedek priests in the New Testament church besides Jesus Christ Himself

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence this is not a reference to either the Aaronic nor Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Originally Posted by Christian

What is YOUR evidence that it is?

My evidence would be the terms "kings and priests" were endemic to the Melchizedek priesthood--as both Melchizedek and Christ were kings and priests.

Bump for Christian

[Christian]

erunder posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Why do the 150+ mormon sub-religions insist they are different?

As far as I know, they don't.

Oh? Then the UTAH mormons AND the STRANGITES are BOTH the original church smith invented?
I didn't know that. . .

What makes you think CHRISTIAN groups 'think that they are different,'

We don't, of course. It's the Protestant groups that do.

And where is this 'protestant' religion located? WHO is its prime leader?

CHRISTIANS all consider that we are 'different parts of the same FAITH'.

I guess your 150+ mormon groups don't believe that of yourselves, do you? EACH ONE OF THOSE thinks "THEY" are "THE ONE" and the rest are heretical.

CHRISTIAN groups are not all that way.

Your 'adopted-from-the-roman-catholics-imaginary-group' called 'the protestants' is a farce. It doesn't exist amongst CHRISTIANS.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

CHRISTIANS all consider that we are 'different parts of the same FAITH'.

Please do show us where one finds numerous different denominations which were "different parts of the same FAITH" in the Biblical NT--which God accepted.

There was but one denomination found in the Biblical NT--with the same structure:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

And those apostles were living, mortal apostles who led the NT through Jesus Christ.

That did not mean there were not those who split from that group--but even so--those splits did not determine the authenticity of the one denomination Christ claimed as His own--which was led by His living, mortal apostles.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Oh? Then the UTAH mormons AND the STRANGITES are BOTH the original church smith invented?
I didn't know that. . .

What?

Misrepresenting the context of someone's statement is not nice, "christian."

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by theway

Of course I understand that.... What you just described is called a RESTORATION!

There is no restoration being conducted by the Mormon cult. As far as we know there has not been any belief similar to the Mormon belief in the ancient world. But then we do not have all the ancient records. Plus even if there was a cult faith like the Mormon belief in the past, that existence does not mean that the ancient 'faith' was the correct one and all others were false. It just means that Smith revived another false belief much like the JWs have done.

[DrDavidT]

Where are the mormons to refute this? their god obviously failed if he could not keep his true faith continuous throughout history.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Where are the mormons to refute this? their god obviously failed if he could not keep his true faith continuous throughout history.

One might want to ask some of the Reformers that question--they believed it failed to the point in which they started new denominations--with a different theology.

Why was there a need to do so--if they found what was present to be sufficient for salvation?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

One might want to ask some of the Reformers that question--they believed it failed to the point in which they started new denominations--with a different theology.

Why was there a need to do so--if they found what was present to be sufficient for salvation?

you do not know church history. there was always a group of true believers in history, God's true church never vanished. and that group was not proto mormons

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

My evidence would be the terms "kings and priests" were endemic to the Melchizedek priesthood--as both Melchizedek and Christ were kings and priests.

Bump for Christian

I TOO AM A PRIEST in CHRIST'S Royal Priesthood

So is EVERY CHRISTIAN BOY, GIRL, MAN AND WOMAN.

Sorry if in YOUR UNBIBLICAL RELIGION priests are supposed to be only WHITE MALES who go through YOUR manmade ceremonies.

Yep, we CHRISTIANS are indeed kings and priests of GOD.

Not "Melchizedek (ONLY JESUS is that besides Melchizedek himself)," not 'aaronic' and not 'plutonic' either.

Your manmade cult has lied to you of course.

According to JESUS I TOO am a king and a priest. But heathens who follow false prophets and false gods such as the mormons do, are not. They are just heathens.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

you do not know church history. there was always a group of true believers in history, God's true church never vanished. and that group was not proto mormons

Then why didn't the Reformers just join up with them?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why didn't the Reformers just join up with them?

who said they didn't?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Postyou do not know church history. there was always a group of true believers in history, God's true church never vanished. and that group was not proto mormons

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostbThen why didn't the Reformers just join up with them?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

who said they didn't?

Then you would not mind posting for us the church the Reformers joined up with? If they joined up with that church--then why are there hundreds of different denominations?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then you would not mind posting for us the church the Reformers joined up with? If they joined up with that church--then why are there hundreds of different denominations?

they were part of the Christian church. there are so many denominations simply because a lot of people opt for interpretation instead of God's truth. In the case of the mormon cult, they listened to evil and not God. they are deceived and do not bear any truth at all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

they were part of the Christian church. there are so many denominations simply because a lot of people opt for interpretation instead of God's truth.

Hi David:

Then you would agree--numerous denominations are not the way of God? What is the true Church of God here on this earth today--could you name it for us?

There was but one denomination recognized by God in the Biblical NT--and it was led by living, mortal apostles.

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please do show us where one finds numerous different denominations which were "different parts of the same FAITH" in the Biblical NT--which God accepted.

There was but one denomination found in the Biblical NT--with the same structure:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

And those apostles were living, mortal apostles who led the NT through Jesus Christ.

That did not mean there were not those who split from that group--but even so--those splits did not determine the authenticity of the one denomination Christ claimed as His own--which was led by His living, mortal apostles.

1 Cor 1:2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
NKJV

Col 4:16
16 Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans,
NKJV



1 Tim 3:15
the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth
NKJV

Heb 12:23
23 to the general ***embly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,
NKJV

Rev 2:1
the church of Ephesus
NKJV

Rev 3:14
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
NKJV


JESUS was alive and on earth too. . .HE is the chief CORNERSTONE. IF you claim the 12 9actually 13) Apostles have to be CURRENTLY ALIVE here on earth, then TO BE CONSISTENT you MUST HAVE A LIVE JESUS CHRIST HERE ON EARTH TOO. . WHERE IS HE?

Of course you CANNOT PRODUCE ONE which shows your WHOLE THEORY TO BE PRESUMPTUOUS AND FALSE.

The TRUTH is that Christ's church has never failed, lost any of its authority, or been 'removed from the earth.' The TRUTH is that it today, as for about 2,000 years now, is built upon the FOUNDATION of the Apostles, and Jesus (the REAL ONE, not the satanic 'spirit-brother-of-satan' one) is alive and well and Jesus STILL is our chief cornerstone.

Joey smith lied to you...and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker .

The REAL Jesus (OUR Jesus, not a demon of satan's spawn) is alive, well, and with HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN, interceding for us CHRISTIANS, and the followers of the false prophet joey smith will end up in hell as will ALL who do not follow the REAL Jesus Christ IN FAITH.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

JESUS was alive and on earth too. . .HE is the chief CORNERSTONE. IF you claim the 12 9actually 13) Apostles have to be CURRENTLY ALIVE here on earth, then TO BE CONSISTENT you MUST HAVE A LIVE JESUS CHRIST HERE ON EARTH TOO. . WHERE IS HE?

Just where He was after Pentecost--in heaven. But His apostles were here on earth--living, mortal apostles.

Where are the living, mortal apostles of Christ's church today?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Then you would agree--numerous denominations are not the way of God? What is the true Church of God here on this earth today--could you name it for us?

There was but one denomination recognized by God in the Biblical NT--and it was led by living, mortal apostles.

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

the existence of numerous denominations and their standing with God does not legitimize smith or the mormon church nor change its status from cult to the true church. there were no denominations in the first few centuries, and the true church is the one where the people hear Jesus' voice. Jesus said-- 'my sheep hear my voice' -- you have not proven that you hear his voice. all you have proven is that you opt for alternative ideas over the words of God. nothing in the mormon church, its rituals, secret handshakes, ideology comes from God and do not quote bible verses because that is not what mormons believe.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

the existence of numerous denominations and their standing with God does not legitimize smith or the mormon church...

I agree. What numerous denominations do mean--that it does not follow the NT pattern--where God had one denomination which He accepted--which had living, mortal apostles and prophets.