Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When I go to church, I never hear the teacher smear another person's faith. What is your "subtle smear" you speak of?

1. Do you believe that I belong to the church of the devil?

2. Do you recall from the temple ceremony where lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well? (this was edited out in the newest temple version)

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Do you believe that I belong to the church of the devil?

2. Do you recall from the temple ceremony where lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well? (this was edited out in the newest temple version)

Interesting point, Billyray. Can you provide a citation pointing to the historical fact that in a Mormon temple ceremony, "lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Jill

Interesting point, Billyray. Can you provide a citation pointing to the historical fact that in a Mormon temple ceremony, "lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well?"

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

LUCIFER:: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

LUCIFER:: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.


(Note--this section is lined out on the link indicating that it was in the prior ceremony (pre-1990) but has been removed from the current ceremony)

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Billyray

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

LUCIFER:: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

LUCIFER:: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.


(Note--this section is lined out on the link indicating that it was in the prior ceremony (pre-1990) but has been removed from the current ceremony)

Interesting and I'm not doubting you, since I've read several eyewitness accounts that support this. But what is the historical source the quote is taken from?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Jill

IBut what is the historical source the quote is taken from?

That is a direct quote from the temple ceremony. I don't think you will find it in historical LDS sources because of the secrecy.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is a direct quote from the temple ceremony. I don't think you will find it in historical LDS sources because of the secrecy.

Billy, I suppose you know that hasn't been in the Temple ceremony for years? I would have been in ten years next month and it was long gone, before I converted.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, I suppose you know that hasn't been in the Temple ceremony for years? I would have been in ten years next month and it was long gone, before I converted.

I gave you the exact date that it was changed which was 1990. It was there when I went through the temple. BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I gave you the exact date that it was changed which was 1990. It was there when I went through the temple. BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?

Apologies. I did not see that you had posted the date.

BTW because it is not there now does this make it OK in your opinion to portray Christian ministers as hired guns for Lucifer?

I suppose it is as "OK" as calling Joseph Smith (and all of the LDS prophets) agents of Satan, and a gazillion other negative names and inferences.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

Apologies. I did not see that you had posted the date.



I suppose it is as "OK" as calling Joseph Smith (and all of the LDS prophets) agents of Satan, and a gazillion other negative names and inferences.

Libby,
And IF you left the LDS Church, why do you continue to defend it? This is a poor example of a person who has left and I'd like to know whatcaused you to leave Mormonism and where you stand now as far as any religion. We who come to WM do so out of concern for Mormons, knowing that it teaches another gospel and leads people away from God. Just their teaching how they themselves can become a god by following ALL the laws and ordinances of their church is not in anyway Biblical, but how many Mormons are able to follow every law and ordinance? No one can be perfect, for there will be a moment when one will fail and then what?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by neverending

Libby,
And IF you left the LDS Church, why do you continue to defend it? This is a poor example of a person who has left and I'd like to know whatcaused you to leave Mormonism and where you stand now as far as any religion. We who come to WM do so out of concern for Mormons, knowing that it teaches another gospel and leads people away from God. Just their teaching how they themselves can become a god by following ALL the laws and ordinances of their church is not in anyway Biblical, but how many Mormons are able to follow every law and ordinance? No one can be perfect, for there will be a moment when one will fail and then what?

I'm not really defending the church. I just think the church is sometimes attacked unfairly. Many of the arguments critics use, can very well be used against their own brand of Christianity. I am interested in truth. While it's, possibly, true that past LDS leaders did say some embarr***ing things (hard to know, since we didn't have tape recordings back then), it is not true that those things represent the church, today. Christians of all sects, over the centuries, have believed and practiced a lot of things they no longer practice...probably, the worst of which was the Inquisition. I can't think of anything Joseph Smith did that was worse than that.

I am no longer interested in the LDS Church, as far as being a member (for my own reasons), but I no longer believe LDS are "lost"..not anymore so than the rest of us, and I believe the LDS religion has redeeming value. But, that's not why I jumped into this conversation. I see critics (even ex-Mormons, who should know better) give very inaccurate representations of what the church, today, believes and teaches. One good example is issue of how Jesus was conceived. The LDS Church today considers that a "mystery". And, even for those who believe it was some kind of "pro-creation", they do not believe it was the kind of sex that humans have. I was taught that there is something LIKE pro-creation, in the Celestial Kingdom, but not likely to be what humans experience. Anyway, that's one example of an issue that, I think, gets very badly misrepresented. There are many more.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The LDS Church today considers that a "mystery".

But that is not what LDS believe in the past as evidenced by many upper level LDS leaders. Why do you think that the leaders got it wrong?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is not what LDS believe in the past as evidenced by many upper level LDS leaders. Why do you think that the leaders got it wrong?

Because they're human.

Why do you suppose the Pope and many other Christian leaders of that era, were so wrong about torturing and murdering, supposed, heretics (in the name of Jesus Christ). They were the mainstream Christians of their time (the "inspired ones")...how could they have been so wrong?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because they're human.

They why trust anything that they say?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They why trust anything that they say?

I don't, particularly, not unless I can confirm it, myself.

The Bible was also written by fallible humans. Why do you believe everything that is written there?

It's all a matter of faith, Billy. LDS believe Joseph Smith was sent by God. You believe the prophets in the O.T. were sent by God. You can't really prove that, anymore than LDS can prove JS. You can really only "prove it" to yourself, by means of the Spirit or whatever you have faith in.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Bible was also written by fallible humans. Why do you believe everything that is written there?

Because it is God's words to us.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because it is God's words to us.

How do you know?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't, particularly, not unless I can confirm it, myself.

Since LDS have prophets what prophecies have you confirmed?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since LDS have prophets what prophecies have you confirmed?

None. But, I do believe some of the general teachings are correct. One example...I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe it, but generally speaking, I'd call that a "hit".

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

None. But, I do believe some of the general teachings are correct. One example...I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe it, but generally speaking, I'd call that a "hit".

Libby,
There is nothing within the Biblical scriptures that can prove we lived a pre-existant life. How can you believe in such a doctrine?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe. . .

So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

How about you answer my other question first. How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

So, you were convinced, primarily, based on your intellect? Just the facts (as you perceive them)? How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

Btw, I'm not saying it isn't. Just asking..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

Okay. The spiritual confirmation was what I was looking for. Wouldn't you consider that the more important of the two?

I would, personally, put that first.

LDS claim eyewitness testimony of the Book of Mormon, as well. Plus, the very important spiritual confirmation.