Tips on how to "evangelize"

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;147228]If you are correct, then He is the author of salvation to no one. (But you are not correct, so hallelujah)

Please oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time...

Since the anti-LDS deny what Paul taught about Jesus (Heb.5:9), they must be taught about Jesus and his ways from scratch.

1. Are you sure Paul was the writer to the Hebrews.. Please show me a reference that makes that clear I really want to knpw that is the truth or not..
2. What does obeying Him include? Does it mean we are held to obey all the commandments of God. Not just as well as we can but obeying Hum completely? Matthew 5:48!
3. If we are called to be perfect as the Father is perfect then should me like Jesus be obedient to the cross as He was?
4. Maybe we Christiana though faith in Jesus can be seen as obedient in ALL ways through the obedience of Jesus (II Cor. 5:21)?

Have the LDS changed the Bible they see as the most correct from the KJV to the CEB? We can use that one just as well.. The One God that is spoken of in Mark 12:29 is God Period! What does Gos say one of His attributes is?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The same God that told us that He doesn't know that there are any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8), told us both though Moses (Deut 6:4) and in Jesus (Mark 12:29) that "Our Lord, is One Lord.. Do the LDS also agree that Jesus is the God that spoke though Isaiah and said that no other God existed before Him (Isaiah 43:10-11).. How does that work can you explain it? So far I have never seen any attempt from any of you to do so.. I have seen some of you (LDS) saying that is "Only for this world". Ok I'll allow you to limit God in that p***age that way, but it still means that there was No God formed before the God speaking in this p***age.. Therefore it can't be Jesus because the LDS teach that He was spiritually born of the Father in heaven while the Father was God.. BUT it can't be the Father either because this God tells us that that no God was formed after Him and the LDS teach that Jesus was formed after the Father.. There is no way that this p***age can be forced to fit into mormonism.. BUT the doctrine of the Trinity, it fits into this p***age like a glove.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't three Gods that became Gods at different times. They are one God who have always been God, eternally.. The God of Israel is GOD.. There is no other.. None was ever formed other Than He, Not before, not after..

Actually, YOU said, to Libby, "Stop worrying what I do and follow Jesus.."

Uh, LDS don't deny this:

Mark 12:29 Common English Bible (CEB)

29 Jesus replied, “The most important one is Israel, listen! Our God is the one Lord,

LDS believe that the God of Israel was the one Lord, called Yahweh or Jehovah, who we know as Jesus Christ.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Since I am Biblical here and mormon doctrine doesn't seem to bother with believing what the Bible teaches That "Nice try" comment is false and the truth remains in the doctrines of the Bible, not in the doctrines of mormonism..

By loving Him and knowing. And if you love Him and want to know Him and thus have eternal life (John 17:3), you need to keep His commandments. In other words, obey Him. How else do you expect Him to tell you "Well done, good and faithful servant" ??

The question again is ARE YOU OBEDIENT? The Bible says NO! It says all have sinned (Romans 3:23); it says that "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:5). God's solution for this problem IN all of us is the cross. You refuse to know even the little of Him that we can know. Those attributes explained in the Bible.. You deny that He is eternally God (Psalm 90:2).. You deny that He created all things (Col 1:16). You deny that the Father is a Person of Spirit (John 4:24). that He is invisible (Col:1:15). You deny that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29). That nothing and no one was made a God before Him or after Him (Isaiah 43:10).. Can you really expect to be called His good and faithful servant and deny Him is all these ways? IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Please oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time...

I bet you do. I bet you salivate at the thought that I would. You are doomed to disappointment, however.

For me to say I have always been obedient would be as false a claim as the claim that Jesus isn't the author of salvation to all who obey Him.

1. Are you sure Paul was the writer to the Hebrews.

My KJV says he is. Are you saying the translators of the KJV made mistakes?

2. What does obeying Him include?

Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

3. If we are called to be perfect as the Father is perfect then should me like Jesus be obedient to the cross as He was?

We are commanded to be like Jesus in all ways that applicable to us.

4. Maybe we Christiana though faith in Jesus can be seen as obedient in ALL ways through the obedience of Jesus (II Cor. 5:21)?

You need to obey Jesus if you want eternal life. He can't follow His own commandments FOR you. That won't do it. He wants you to obey Him because He knows that's the only way you can be truly happy.

Since I am Biblical here

If you are, then you're being obedient--something you just claimed is impossible for you to do.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;147254]I bet you do. I bet you salivate at the thought that I would. You are doomed to disappointment, however.

For me to say I have always been obedient would be as false a claim as the claim that Jesus isn't the author of salvation to all who obey Him.

No matter, since you wouldn't say you are obedient you are saying you are NOT obedient.. Since that is true and you are not obedience, you admit that you can't be saved, and that by your own interpretation of the Bible.. You have FAILED TO BE OBEDIENT..

My KJV says he is. Are you saying the translators of the KJV mae mistakes?

They were human but remember there wasn't just one of them doing the work. It was a team of translators so I would have to say NO. I am saying that English is a living language.. Even to the point of allowing a negative word to became a positive word.. Saying you are or being called "BAD" is a good thing in the language now depending on the context of the statement. In the KJV LOVE is called CHARITY. In modern English charity is giving time, goods, and funds to support the poor.. Love and charity don't have the same meaning as they did in 1611..

Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

And you have admitted that you don't do this.. So salvation is out of your reach.. Even in LDS repentance you have to remember and repent of your sin.. This is wild because as I have pointed out you don't keep the feasts that were commanded by God.. Not even the P***over. So What good is it that God pronounces that His feasts are perpetual and we are commanded to keep them. Most people today don't even know when they are to be kept, much less keep them.. You haven't been obedient to every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.. Remember God said He changes NOT (Malachi 3:6)..

We are commanded to be like Jesus in all ways that applicable to us.

This is the mormon way. You don't like what the scriptures teach so you add to them and thereby change the meaning. Be like Jesus (Only as it is applicable to us).. Thank you so showing what mormonism does to scripture "...be conformed to the image of his Son..." (Romans 8:29). I left out the reference to predestination because I know how much you hate a verse that supports Calvinism. Still what did you just do? You added "that applicable to us" to God's simple command to be conformed to the image of Jesus.. Again THANK YOU..

You need to obey Jesus if you want eternal life. He can't follow His own commandments FOR you. That won't do it. He wants you to obey Him because He knows that's the only way you can be truly happy. If you are, then you're being obedient--something you just claimed is impossible for you to do.

And by your own admission you say that you don't obey him.. hummm. Then you say Jesus can't be our righteousness, our obedience. But I showed you in the Bible where it teaches that is just what Jesus did.

2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But you say we must do that on our own.. Who is right here, the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul or you? Do you think I have any question about that?

I never said I didn't try to follow Jesus and to live as He has commanded I said that You, Me, all men fail. And in so failing become guilty of the whole law (James 2:10). Therefore I will agree with God that before His righteousness in our own works we are all murderers, and adulterers, a thieves, and idolaters, and all the other sins that any man has ever committed.. Jesus took all that off us giving us His righteousness and taking that sin to the cross.. Like Paul all I have to boast in is the love and grace that Jesus has shown me in doing the work of cleansing me. I didn't deserve it; He did it because of His grace through a faith He has given me. I Boast Only that I have a Mighty God, am Everlasting Father such as He.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No matter, since you wouldn't say you are obedient you are saying you are NOT obedient..

Nice try doing that old anti-LDS trick of changing your original claim into something else, and hoping no one would notice.

Your "challenge" was

"pease oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time..."

and now it's "you are saying you are NOT obedient."


Which is a different thing. Suppose you used to be late for meetings, but now you are punctual. If someone said "pease oh please tell me that you have always been punctual" you'd be lying if you claimed you had. Now, what if that person then said "Aha! You are saying you are NOT punctual!" -- would that person be making a logical, valid conclusion?

Obviously not, but that's what you did.

Since that is true and you are not obedience, you admit that you can't be saved, and that by your own interpretation of the Bible..

That is quite false. I wish you understood the gospel, because if you did, then you could rise above the defeatist, fatalistic Calvinism that keeps you oblivious to the glorious truth of Jesus' gospel and to your potential and the good that you are capable of. It's totally false to say that because a person hasn't always been obedient, he can't be saved. A big part of the good news of the gospel is that even though you haven't always obeyed Christ's commandments, you CAN, with His help, become a person who DOES obey them, and that means that you CAN be saved. It's not too late to repent and start obeying, and thanks to Christ's atonement, you can be saved. That is the good news.

They were human but remember there wasn't just one of them doing the work. It was a team of translators so I would have to say NO.

You're saying "NO, the KJV translators didn't make any mistakes." But my KJC says, at the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews, "THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE HEBREWS."

But you doubt that Paul wrote it. How do you explain the KJV saying he DID?

This is wild

The only thing I see as wild is your mistaken conclusions.

because as I have pointed out you don't keep the feasts that were commanded by God..

I am not an ancient Jew. I am a Christian, and there is a lot of the Law of Moses that Christians don't need to observe. Example: Christians don't need to obey the commandment to kill any adulterers among us.

Still what did you just do? You added "that applicable to us" to God's simple command to be conformed to the image of Jesus.. Again THANK YOU..

Christians with common sense are able to tell what in the scriptures is applicable to them, and what is no longer applicable to them or was never applicable to them.

Who is right here, the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul or you?

All 3 of us--The Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul, and me. The one who is wrong here is you.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;147265]Nice try doing that old anti-LDS trick of changing your original claim into something else, and hoping no one would notice.

Your "challenge" was

"pease oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time..."

and now it's "you are saying you are NOT obedient."


Which is a different thing. Suppose you used to be late for meetings, but now you are punctual. If someone said "pease oh please tell me that you have always been punctual" you'd be lying if you claimed you had. Now, what if that person then said "Aha! You are saying you are NOT punctual!" -- would that person be making a logical, valid conclusion?

Obviously not, but that's what you did.

Come now Jeff lets be honest. You didn't answer my question at all.. You aren't dumb you could see that no matter how you answered it you would be wrong. You know that the Bible says that all have sinned. That includes you. Sin is only disobedience to God's commands, so all sin is flat disobedience. You can't be saved in disobedience. Only those that are obedient can be saved.. You preach it and I agree. The difference between us is I know that in the flesh I will NEVER BE 100% obedient, NEVER.. I get the feeling that you believe through repentance you believe you can.. The problem with that is that Jesus criminalized even our thoughts. If we think that God isn't there even for just a second or two we are in sin.. We fail and we fail, and we fail.. Many of these sins we never repent of.. At least not the way mormonism teaches that we must repent of sin..

That is quite false. I wish you understood the gospel, because if you did, then you could rise above the defeatist, fatalistic Calvinism that keeps you oblivious to the glorious truth of Jesus' gospel and to your potential and the good that you are capable of. It's totally false to say that because a person hasn't always been obedient, he can't be saved. A big part of the good news of the gospel is that even though you haven't always obeyed Christ's commandments, you CAN, with His help, become a person who DOES obey them, and that means that you CAN be saved. It's not too late to repent and start obeying, and thanks to Christ's atonement, you can be saved. That is the good news.

I understand the Gospel just fine.. I even understand the other gospel of mormonism. I just know that that is what it is an other gospel that is NOT taught in the Bible.. I have shown you where Calvinism lines up with Biblical doctrine and still you have terrible things to say about it. It doesn't look like you have shown that Predestination isn't taught in the Bible.. It would be a fools errand to say so it is mentioned right in both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1.. I agree with you that if we aren't obedient we can't be saved.. That obedience to all of God's laws are required and THAT no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.. And that according to James if we commit one sin we are guilty of all.. I believe all that because I believe the Bible.. Seems that you have this balance scale idea of salvation.. of we have more good than bad we get to be with Jesus, and it not some lower degree of glory where we fit in.. Can you believe that and somehow make it work with grace? Love to see you do that.. You have not done so in salvation by God's grace through Faith where again clearly it SAYS THAT SALVATION IS NOT OF WORKS..

No One except Jesus has ever kept God's commandments EVER! It is not in us to do so.. The imagination of man's heart is evil even from our childhood (Gen 8:21).. We are in a state of sin from our youth and we do not change.. WE can't start from a filthy condition and while living in the filth of the world clean ourselves up.. As we repent of one sin we commit 3 more.. It's a losing battle.. Din is what we are by nature the devil is our Father until we are born again from above.. Remember I told you some time ago that a Christian doesn't sin as much as they want and still be saved.. A Christian sins much much more then they want and still through the works of Jesus becoming sin for us we have been made the righteousness of God through Him.. That is the Good news the news that you have despised at I quoted it direct from the Bible.. You don't believe God's message, why would I want to repent of believing the truth and accept the lie of a man's mind that is mormonism..

You're saying "NO, the KJV translators didn't make any mistakes." But my KJC says, at the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews, "THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE HEBREWS."

But you doubt that Paul wrote it. How do you explain the KJV saying he DID?

Believing that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews is not taught in the m****cript of the Bible.. I thought you were speaking of the translation not something that the text doesn't address.. Care to address what was in the text and not the tradition of the Church.. All the other epistles of Paul are started with His introduction of Himself. Hebrews is minis that introduction.. It doesn't follow Paul's style and yet still many, even teachers believe that Paul is the Author. Go ahead keep straining at that gnat..

The only thing I see as wild is your mistaken conclusions.

I am not saying it is not Paul's work. I am saying that it doesn't have to be and that there is no clear statement that it is within the text.. Again a leap you seem to be willing to take.. Bit that is fine.. Whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not is not a saving principle. No is it evidence that the Book of Hebrews is not scripture..

I am not an ancient Jew. I am a Christian, and there is a lot of the Law of Moses that Christians don't need to observe. Example: Christians don't need to obey the commandment to kill any adulterers among us. Christians with common sense are able to tell what in the scriptures is applicable to them, and what is no longer applicable to them or was never applicable to them.

I agree that you are not a Jew.. You have nothing in common with the teachings of any of the tribes of Israel. You are NOT a Christian either. Christians believe God in all He has said.. That He is from Everlasting to everlasting to start with, and that He is God and there is no other for a second.. You deny both those foundational teachings about God.. Believing that He lied to us, makes you a God hater, or at best a Pagan.. God called the Feasts of the Law everlasting principles. Even the stranger within Israel was expected to hold respect to those holidays. The Law came from God and Jesus is God.. You are responsible to obey Jesus. You just don't want to be obedient.. You like living in rebellion..

All 3 of us--The Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul, and me. The one who is wrong here is you.

Yes you are!!! I have shown you what that is more than once.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Come now Jeff lets be honest.

Hey, that's a great idea! LET'S BE HONEST.

You didn't answer my question at all..

Wait a second, you just said "Let's be honest" and here you are saying something that is false. Wow, that didn't take long, did it? I answered your question. Which made you feel like you needed to change it to something else, I guess because your pride won't allow you to just admit that the answer didn't give you any ammo to use against the LDS.

My HONEST answer to "Have you always been obedient?" was "No." YOU tried to change that into "You are STILL not obedient, and it's impossible for you to EVER become obedient."

So yes, "let's be honest" indeed.

You aren't dumb you could see that no matter how you answered it you would be wrong.

Huh? Wrong about WHAT? About the FACT that the Bible teaches that obedience is a requirement for eternal life, and obedience is proof that you know and love God and His Son? News flash: I am NOT wrong about those things.

You know that the Bible says that all have sinned. That includes you.

It does say that, but if you overliteralize your interpretation of what it MEANT, then you are doomed to eisegesis and to being a slave to Calvinism, which is unbiblical.
"ALL" cannot have been intended to include stillborn babies. They have not sinned, ever. They are like Adam and Eve before THEY sinned.

Using your logic, Adam and Eve had sinned before they sinned.

You can't be saved in disobedience.

Then I guess you aren't "being honest" when you say that you have already been saved. Because by your own admission you still disobey, and by your own statement, you can't be saved in that state that you are currently in.

Only those that are obedient can be saved..

And that is why I want to try to be more obedient, and not give up, until the day comes that I no longer disobey at all. As the saying goes, "If you want to become sinless, you need to start to SIN LESS."

The difference between us is I know that in the flesh I will NEVER BE 100% obedient, NEVER.. I get the feeling that you believe through repentance you believe you can..

The real difference between us is that you swallowed the Calvinistic Cheap Grace idea of "The second you believe in Jesus, you are saved right then and there," while I believe that eternal life is a promise of the FUTURE destiny of people who endure in faith TO THE END.

I understand the Gospel just fine..

Except for the part that goes "Those who believe and obey WILL be saved." You think like Calvin: that "Those who believe are instantly saved right then."

I have shown you where Calvinism lines up with Biblical doctrine and still you have terrible things to say about it.

Hey, it's not just me who has terrible things to say about it. Less than 5% of ALL CHRISTIANS are Calvinists. (Only 80 million out of 2 billion)

That means that Calvinism is a CULT of Christianity. It's a very, very small minority "fringe" group.

It doesn't look like you have shown that Predestination isn't taught in the Bible.. It would be a fools errand to say so it is mentioned right in both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1..

Except that the word is translated "foreordained" not "predestined" in some Bibles.

Seems that you have this balance scale idea of salvation.. of we have more good than bad we get to be with Jesus, and it not some lower degree of glory where we fit in.. Can you believe that and somehow make it work with grace?

Yeah, actually I can.
Grace makes up for the things that are beyond our control. You are right in saying that some people don't remember some of the sins they committed. How can they repent of those sins? If they repentant, they think "I WOULD repent of those sins if I could" and grace takes care of them.

A Christian sins much much more then they want and still through the works of Jesus becoming sin for us we have been made the righteousness of God through Him.. That is the Good news the news that you have despised

That's crazy, I have never despised that doctrine. "Let's be honest" now, okay?

You don't believe God's message,

Oh, I believe GOD'S message. I just don't believe yours and Calvin's.

All the other epistles of Paul are started with His introduction of Himself. Hebrews is minis that introduction..

If Paul didn't write it, then before you believe it's inerrant and God-breathed, shouldn't you be demanding to know who DID write it? Are you in the habit of believing anonymous man's writings to be inerrant God-breathed scripture???

Whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not is not a saving principle. No is it evidence that the Book of Hebrews is not scripture..

Then whether Mormon wrote the BOM or not is not a saving principle, either, nor is it evidence that the BOM is not scripture....

You just don't want to be obedient.. You like living in rebellion..

I bet I want to be as obedient as you want to be...

[nrajeffreturns]

Hey Jim, just for you I am providing a link to a site called

"Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist"

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

where he lists the problems with Calvinism.


Also, this site where Dr. William Lane Craig lists problems with Calvinism. Example:

"Universal, divine, causal determinism cannot offer a coherent interpretation of Scripture

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molin...#ixzz2cF6aKwfo

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hey Jim, just for you I am providing a link to a site called

"Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist"

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

where he lists the problems with Calvinism.


Also, this site where Dr. William Lane Craig lists problems with Calvinism. Example:

"Universal, divine, causal determinism cannot offer a coherent interpretation of Scripture

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molin...#ixzz2cF6aKwfo

I have pointed not to a former anything to defend a doctrine I hold dear, but to the scripture.. Tell me that the scripture in wrong, A denial of God's word is all the evidence I will accept from you.. In so doing I will know just what you are, and where you are coming from spiritually.. The Lord teaches us that:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That is what the Bible teaches and Calvinism copied those statement of JESUS INTO THEIR TEACHING. That is what we should be doing! But you bring the statements of a former Calvinist here and represent it without Biblical support as the truth.. I am a former mormon. I come here and give testimony about mormonism do you believe me? NO! You don't even believe with with Biblical support, with support from Joseph Smith's words, or from LDS scripture.. But I am suppose to accept what a former Calvinist teaches? Does that make sence?

Tell you what you read everything that is in this site (http://www.utlm.org/) After you read everything that Sandra Tanner has compiled there come back and share with me and I will read your sites.. After all she is a former LDS as well.. You haven't been able to handle the biblical teaching on which Calvinism was established, much less being able to deal with the 10s of thousands of pages that Sandra has compiled about THE ERRORS and out and out lies of mormonism.. If you can't do that be ready for me to use her information as a resource and you can use a nameless "Former Calvinist" and a academic Dr. William Lane Craig as your references.. Which ever God's word agrees with must be the truth.. You still have to show that either I have misused John 6:37 by taking it out of context, believe that the p***age is in error, or that the p***age is an out and out lie.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have pointed not to a former anything to defend a doctrine I hold dear, but to the scripture..

You are pointing to your interpretation of that scripture. The other 96% of Christianity points to their interpretation of scripture in their rejection of Calvinism. Why should they abandon their interpretation and accept the interpretation of the small minority, 4% of Christendom?

Tell me that the scripture in wrong,

96% of Christians would probably want YOU to tell THEM the scriptures that refute Calvinism are wrong. What is your reply to them?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Maybe you Calvinists who make up the 4% minority "cult" are the ones who will be cast out.

But you bring the statements of a former Calvinist here and represent it without Biblical support as the truth..

You're saying that Steve Jones didn't have any Biblical support for his abandoning Calvinism????

You didn't go to his site. Did you?

I am a former mormon. I come here and give testimony about mormonism do you believe me? NO!

But you want me to believe you, right? And you want people to believe that your claims about Mormonism have extra credibility and accuracy because you used to be one of us, correct?

So why the double standard?

Tell you what you read everything that is in this site (http://www.utlm.org/) After you read everything that Sandra Tanner has compiled there come back and share with me and I will read your sites..

Wow, that's a fair deal, right? IF I will read tens of thousands of pages, THEN you will read TWO web pages.

Thanks, but that doesn't seem quite fair, so I will p***. I'd rather just let you remain ******** of the biblical evidence that refutes Calvinism.

...you can use a nameless "Former Calvinist"

NAMELESS??? There must be something wrong with your computer, because when I go the site, his name is on the third line, like this:

Calvinism Critiqued

by a Former Calvinist

by Steve Jones

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;147291]You are pointing to your interpretation of that scripture. The other 96% of Christianity points to their interpretation of scripture in their rejection of Calvinism. Why should they abandon their interpretation and accept the interpretation of the small minority, 4% of Christendom?

You seem to understand what the scripture in meaning without my explanation.. I don't see anything but what it actually says that 96% of others say it means.. Please explain..

96% of Christians would probably want YOU to tell THEM the scriptures that refute Calvinism are wrong. What is your reply to them?


Maybe you Calvinists who make up the 4% minority "cult" are the ones who will be cast out.


You're saying that Steve Jones didn't have any Biblical support for his abandoning Calvinism????

You didn't go to his site. Did you?


But you want me to believe you, right? And you want people to believe that your claims about Mormonism have extra credibility and accuracy because you used to be one of us, correct?

So why the double standard?


Wow, that's a fair deal, right? IF I will read tens of thousands of pages, THEN you will read TWO web pages.

Thanks, but that doesn't seem quite fair, so I will p***. I'd rather just let you remain ******** of the biblical evidence that refutes Calvinism.


NAMELESS??? There must be something wrong with your computer, because when I go the site, his name is on the third line, like this:

Calvinism Critiqued

by a Former Calvinist

by Steve Jones

Before I could make further explanation to this 96% I would have to know who they are and what they think this and other p***ages that Calvinism believes supports their teaching hold to.. So who are these people? How do you know that 96% of all the people in the world that call themselves Christian deny John 5:37, or have some mysterious interpretation of the p***age other than holding the simple truth of it's straight forward message? I deny that your invention that any such 96% exists.. It is as fictional as the BofM..

I didn't go to your site, I doubt that you went to The Light House.. Oh wait I see that you haven't.. Sp I am expected to read your nonsense but you aren't required to do any study at all.. Isn't it wild that there would be so much wrong with mormonism that the problem can fill a book as large and tightly spaced as "Shadow or Reality". Have you ever read two pages of it or the online pages of utlm.com? Tell you what You agree to read just this one page (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvision.htm) and I will read your stuff.. Willing? I still have doubts..

I don't care who brings the message it could be a An Independent Bible teacher or a Lutheran Minister. It could be a small child who has just come to realized what Jesus had done for her. The fact that I was LDS is meaningless just as the fact that your Steve Jones say he was a Calvinist has no effect on what the scripture teach.. At any rate I deny you invented 96% of Christians deny Calvinistic teachings. You have no evidence that supports that clam other then your desperate desire for that to be true.. Your desires do not make any lie into truth..


In your post to me you listed him only as a Former Calvinist.. You are right I didn't go to the site.. Why should I go to sites that attack my faith when you refuse to do the same thing.. I am not the fool you take me for..

In John 6:43-44 Even your source admits that God bring all those who Jesus will save to Him.. Yes He does so in and through His word but is the Father that does this not the believer.. The salvation of all who are given that greatest of all gifts is all up to God, not the believer.. Even your invented scripture teaches that saying. "It is my work and my glory to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man". Are mormons then Calvinists? Your source admitted that it is all God's work. Mormon scripture teaches that it is all God's work why are you fighting it.. NOW READ THE SMALL PAGE I SENT YOU..

This is all the examination we need to do of Calvinism.. The problem you have is that ALL Christians Believe that God is one Lord, in the Trinity, That salvation comes to us by God's grace through faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS.. Thar all Christians are kings and priests unto God. That in the performance of the duties of a priest we offer the sacrifice of praise to God (Hebrews 13:15).. In short we believe the Bible where as mormonism teaches 3 Gods for this world. Denying that is is unbiblical that one can be created after the first is already God. Denying that There is One God, and even God is unaware of any other Gods existence (Isaiah 44:8)..

Jeff your source Mr Jones is still just as Calvinist as I am.. He believes that all the Father Gives to Jesus will come to Him and that those that come Jesus will in no wise cast out.. You don't agree with him and he is NOT anti Bible.. IHS jim

[John T]

JAMES,

How could you fall for such an obvious derail? When the mormons have nothing to sy about the topic at hand, they resort to their fallacious and short-sited interpretation of their favorite boogey man, John Calvin. Because they are spiritually blind, according to what the Sacriptures say, they are incapable of understanding the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone, and not of merit.

Calvin has NOTHING to do with evangelism, but when you see evangelism through the redeemed heart of a Calvinist, then you know why the most effective evangelists are Calvinists, and not Arminians.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You seem to understand what the scripture in meaning without my explanation.. I don't see anything but what it actually says that 96% of others say it means.. Please explain..

Sure: Since 96% of the world's Christians are NOT Calvinists, then apparently they don't see biblical support for Calvinism in the Bible. Only 4% of Christians are Calvinists, so only 4% of Christians think the Bible supports it. (Obviously if they believed that the Bible DOES support it, they'd be Calvinists like you, right?)

Before I could make further explanation to this 96% I would have to know who they are and what they think this and other p***ages that Calvinism believes supports their teaching hold to.. So who are these people?

They are the vast majority of Christians. They are the main body of Christians, and you belong to a small "cult" of Christianity that comprises only 4% of the world's Christians.

How do you know that 96% of all the people in the world that call themselves Christian deny John 5:37, or have some mysterious interpretation of the p***age other than holding the simple truth of it's straight forward message?

You're asking how I know that only 4% of the world's Christians are Calvinists? That's easy: I used the Internet and asked Google "How many Christians are Calvinists?" or something similar, and voila: multiple sites appeared with the answer.

As for John 5:37:

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

what on earth makes you think that 96% of all Christians deny that verse???!!! You will have to explain that, because I can't make sense of your claim. What makes you think that any Christian who doesn't subscribe to Calvinism denies John 5:37??

I deny that your invention that any such 96% exists.. It is as fictional as the BofM..

MY invention??

"A 2011 report of the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life estimated that members of Presbyterian or Reformed churches make up 7% of the 801 million Protestants globally, or approximately 56 million people.[7] Today, the World Communion of Reformed Churches, which includes some United Churches, has 80 million believers."

It is widely claimed that there are about 2 billion Christians in the world.
80 million is 4% of 2 billion, if my math is correct.

I was being generous by choosing 4%, Jim. If we go with the 56 million number, then the percentage is even LESS. What do you say to THIS guy:

"John H. Gerstner was a Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Knox Theological Seminary and an authority on the life and theology of Jonathan Edwards."

R.C. Sproul was one of his students. He estimated "that only 2% are cl***ically Calvinistical when it comes to predestination and election."
http://donbryant.wordpress.com/2010/...re-calvinists/


So thanks, Jim, for stating that the Book of Mormon is as non-fictional as the claimed number of Calvinists is!
There's hope for you yet!

... "Shadow or Reality". Have you ever read two pages of it or the online pages of utlm.com?

Yes. I actually went through the whole book and wrote down all the mistakes and false claims that I found.

Tell you what You agree to read just this one page (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvision.htm) and I will read your stuff.. Willing?

I think I can do that.

I still have doubts..

Oh ye of little faith.

At any rate I deny you invented 96% of Christians deny Calvinistic teachings. You have no evidence that supports that clam other then your desperate desire for that to be true..

I guess Wikipedia and its sources, and John H. Gerstner, are desperate, too? How much more proof would you need before you would believe?

Your desires do not make any lie into truth..

YOUR desires that more than 4% of Christians be Calvinists, do not make the truth into a lie.

Why should I go to sites that attack my faith when you refuse to do the same thing..

Uh, James, hello? I come to THIS site almost every day!!!

I am not the fool you take me for..

Are you sure about that?

Jeff your source Mr Jones is still just as Calvinist as I am..

But he has "repented" of his belief that Calvinism is correct, while you have not. How does that make him as Calvinist as you are?

You don't agree with him and he is NOT anti Bible..

Yeah, he's just anti-CALVINISM. And so am I.

[alanmolstad]

I believe that walter martin supported a few of calvin's ideas, and disagreed with a few..

I would think that most people fall into that same situation...where we think calvin was right about a few things, and off-base about a few things..

however we must allow Christian grace to cover all such questions, therefore we do not call each other as if the other side were a "CULT".....
Rather we extend grace to the other person and their views knowing that there is much more we agree on compared to the few things we question..

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe that walter martin supported a few of calvin's ideas, and disagreed with a few.

.
Then you are like us LDS, because we support a few of calvin's ideas--such as Jesus being the only way to salvation--and we disagree with a few, such as TULIP and Trinitarianism.

I would think that most people fall into that same situation...where we think calvin was right about a few things, and off-base about a few things..

Yes, the LDS are like most people in that regard.

however we must allow Christian grace to cover all such questions, therefore we do not call each other as if the other side were a "CULT".....

Yeah, you are right. We shouldn't call other people such as LDS cultists just because they disagree with Calvin in some places.

Rather we extend grace to the other person and their views knowing that there is much more we agree on compared to the few things we question..

Yes, amen. Very good point, and I agree 100%. There is far more that LDS and other Christians agree on, than disagree on.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure: Since 96% of the world's Christians are NOT Calvinists, then apparently they don't see biblical support for Calvinism in the Bible. Only 4% of Christians are Calvinists, so only 4% of Christians think the Bible supports it. (Obviously if they believed that the Bible DOES support it, they'd be Calvinists like you, right?)


They are the vast majority of Christians. They are the main body of Christians, and you belong to a small "cult" of Christianity that comprises only 4% of the world's Christians.


You're asking how I know that only 4% of the world's Christians are Calvinists? That's easy: I used the Internet and asked Google "How many Christians are Calvinists?" or something similar, and voila: multiple sites appeared with the answer.

As for John 5:37:

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

what on earth makes you think that 96% of all Christians deny that verse???!!! You will have to explain that, because I can't make sense of your claim. What makes you think that any Christian who doesn't subscribe to Calvinism denies John 5:37??


MY invention??

"A 2011 report of the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life estimated that members of Presbyterian or Reformed churches make up 7% of the 801 million Protestants globally, or approximately 56 million people.[7] Today, the World Communion of Reformed Churches, which includes some United Churches, has 80 million believers."

It is widely claimed that there are about 2 billion Christians in the world.
80 million is 4% of 2 billion, if my math is correct.

I was being generous by choosing 4%, Jim. If we go with the 56 million number, then the percentage is even LESS. What do you say to THIS guy:

"John H. Gerstner was a Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Knox Theological Seminary and an authority on the life and theology of Jonathan Edwards."

R.C. Sproul was one of his students. He estimated "that only 2% are cl***ically Calvinistical when it comes to predestination and election."
http://donbryant.wordpress.com/2010/...re-calvinists/


So thanks, Jim, for stating that the Book of Mormon is as non-fictional as the claimed number of Calvinists is!
There's hope for you yet!



Yes. I actually went through the whole book and wrote down all the mistakes and false claims that I found.


I think I can do that.


Oh ye of little faith.


I guess Wikipedia and its sources, and John H. Gerstner, are desperate, too? How much more proof would you need before you would believe?


YOUR desires that more than 4% of Christians be Calvinists, do not make the truth into a lie.


Uh, James, hello? I come to THIS site almost every day!!!


Are you sure about that?


But he has "repented" of his belief that Calvinism is correct, while you have not. How does that make him as Calvinist as you are?


Yeah, he's just anti-CALVINISM. And so am I.

This will be my third attempt to answer you on this post Jeff.. For some reason I would really have it complete and my system would shut down.. Third times the charm..

Jeff your math is badly skewed. Your numbers include all members of both the Roman and Eastern churches, that teach false doctrines such as the doctrines of Limbo, and Purgatory. These deny the teachings of Jesus to allow the little children to come to Him for such is the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14). It is consistent with the teaches of God though |His word that Jesus bore our sin in His body (1 Peter 2:24).. Those who believe have been made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). Both these churches pray to statues of saints including Mary the mother of Jesus making her of divine nature in the doctrine of immaculate conception. And these that deny the teachings of the Lord even to the place a human being in her nature being an equal with God , you wish to identify as Christian.. Then you want to count as Christian all who deny the Deity of Christ, calling him a mere creation as the JW do.. No, those that put mere men in the place of God. who deny His teaching, putting words of men in their place. Those that build graven images and pray to them, None of these can be held as Christian..

The Roman church alone has over 1 Billion members. The Eastern church at least half that.. When we add all the cults to their number we approach the 2 Billion peoples that you use as an estimate for the number of total Christian. Remember there are still millions that call themselves Christian that have never hardly opened a Bible. Those that don't know the first things of God's message to us.. And all these you want to include as Christian because some nonchristian authority demands it.. I deny their authority to make that decision, I deny yours to accept it as factual. My estimation fall well short of your numbers something like 100-200 million total throughout the world.. Those that believe Jesus is God and believe His word to us.. Of there 100% believe that God is One. That of all those the Father has given to Jesus none will be lost. That in it's self covers predestination, Perseverance of the Saints, Irresistible grace and Unconditional election.

I am sorry If I lead you to the wrong p***age it's John 6:37 not 5.. You know very well I meant The Light House. As far as being allowed on LDS sites I was banned for life within 2 days because I wouldn't be still about Biblical error taught on MADD.. I don't have to tell anyone who I am on LDS.org.. Also comments are not allowed. So there is little doubt I will be able to continue to use it as a source.

No one that believes the Bible denies any of the Bible.. The Believe John 6:37, they believe in predestination as it is taught in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5.. If someones says that they are Christian and denies the words of God, they are liars not Christian.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

This will be my third attempt to answer you on this post Jeff.. For some reason I would really have it complete and my system would shut down.. Third times the charm..

Sorry for your bad luck, but I am glad it finally worked for you this time.

Jeff your math is badly skewed.

I never did like math much anyway. I had to re-take Calculus in college because I got an F the first time. I did get a B the second time, though. My kids are much better at math than I am. The oldest is a freshman at MIT right now. He is 17 years old. There are about 5 other kids from our state who are freshmen there. Of all the 1620 freshmen there (18,000 applied, and 1620 were accepted), apparently only 3 are active LDS--my son, his room-mate who is from California and the son of Peruvian immigrant parents, and another kid from California who is on the basketball team.

Your numbers include all members of both the Roman and Eastern churches, that teach false doctrines such as the doctrines of Limbo, and Purgatory.

True, but they still count as part of Christendom, in the opinion of me and Wikipedia. Protestantism teaches some false doctrines, too, I bet, but I still consider them to be part of Christendom, too. And so does Wikipedia.

These deny the teachings of Jesus to allow the little children to come to Him for such is the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14).

Maybe, but Calvinism denies those kids, too, since under Predestination, Absolute Sovereignty, and "You must accept Jesus before you die, or you must go to hell" doctrines, billions of children are doomed to hell.

Both these churches pray to statues of saints including Mary the mother of Jesus making her of divine nature in the doctrine of immaculate conception.

But anyone who believes the Bible to be error-free is in the same boat, making a book of divine nature and "immaculately conceived." That's about as bad as the Mary doctrine, isn't it?

And these that deny the teachings of the Lord even to the place a human being in her nature being an equal with God , you wish to identify as Christian..

But Bible inerrantists place a book being equal to God, yet I still count such people as Christians. I HAVE to, because those people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation.

Then you want to count as Christian all who deny the Deity of Christ, calling him a mere creation as the JW do..

If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation, then I HAVE to call them Christians. The Arians and Modalists of 1800 years ago were Christians. They had some incorrect beliefs, but they still believed the "essential doctrines about Jesus." Right?

Remember there are still millions that call themselves Christian that have never hardly opened a Bible. Those that don't know the first things of God's message to us..

You don't need to have or read a Bible in order to be a Christian. Lots of people who were converted by the original apostles never had a Bible. They just heard and accepted and believed the gospel that was told to them orally by the apostles.

And all these you want to include as Christian because some nonchristian authority demands it.. I deny their authority to make that decision, I deny yours to accept it as factual.

That's okay, they probably don't recognize YOUR authority to cast them out of the fold.

My estimation fall well short of your numbers something like 100-200 million total throughout the world..

Wow, if there are only 100 million Christians in all the world, then the Message hasn't borne much fruit over the last 1900 years. It's almost like you're saying that if a Christian isn't a Calvinist, then he's not a Christian.

Those that believe Jesus is God and believe His word to us.. Of there 100% believe that God is One. That of all those the Father has given to Jesus none will be lost. That in it's self covers predestination, Perseverance of the Saints, Irresistible grace and Unconditional election.

It is looking even more like you're saying that if a Christian isn't a Calvinist, then he's not a Christian.
So do you accept Wikipedia's estimate of the number of Calvinists in the world? Seems like you do recognize their authority in THAT case...

I am sorry If I lead you to the wrong p***age it's John 6:37 not 5.. You know very well I meant The Light House.

No, I didn't figure that out.

As far as being allowed on LDS sites I was banned for life within 2 days because I wouldn't be still about Biblical error taught on MADD..

What did you say? It must have made some waves and rocked the boat, as the saying goes.

No one that believes the Bible denies any of the Bible.. The Believe John 6:37, they believe in predestination as it is taught in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5.. If someones says that they are Christian and denies the words of God, they are liars not Christian.. IHS jim

I don't think the issue is as black and white as you see it to be. An Arminian would say that you reject the parts of the Bible that refute Calvinism, but he wouldn't say "Therefore, you are a liar, you deny the words of God, and you are not a Christian."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But anyone who believes the Bible to be error-free is in the same boat, making a book of divine nature and "immaculately conceived.

What errors are you talking about Jeff?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What errors are you talking about Jeff?

ANY of them! All it takes is one error to exist, and then a book is not inerrant.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

ANY of them! All it takes is one error to exist, and then a book is not inerrant.

One error in an entire book makes it inerrant? That is the argument of the Bible, BoM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Moroni admits errors and say "if they be any condemn, not the word (or things) of God". So where are you going with this?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

One error in an entire book makes it inerrant?

I think you misread it. One error makes a book NOT inerrant.

That is the argument of the Bible, BoM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Moroni admits errors and say "if they be any condemn, not the word (or things) of God". So where are you going with this?

I was going the same place you are going with it: Just because a book has some errors in it, doesn't mean it should be condemned. Only God is error free. The men He commands to do things, such as record events, should not be expected to be as infallible as God Himself is.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think you misread it. One error makes a book NOT inerrant.


I was going the same place you are going with it: Just because a book has some errors in it, doesn't mean it should be condemned. Only God is error free. The men He commands to do things, such as record events, should not be expected to be as infallible as God Himself is.

Either Jesus is God or He is not.. If He is then any promises He gives are divine and will be fulfilled. To deny that Jesus promised that heaven and earth would p*** away but that His word would not p*** away is to deny that Jesus is God. This divine promise is strong evidence that the Bible is pure, that it's message is just what God's original intent is.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Either Jesus is God or He is not..

He is deity like His Father before Him is.

If He is then any promises He gives are divine and will be fulfilled.

Yes. Your problem is that you misunderstood what he meant.

To deny that Jesus promised that heaven and earth would p*** away but that His word would not p*** away is to deny that Jesus is God.

To deny that the Bible has been altered over the centuries is to deny reality. To believe that Jesus ever promised that the Bible would never be altered, is to suffer from a misconception.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

To deny that the Bible has been altered over the centuries is to deny reality.

But you have yet to prove that it has been altered and when this so called alteration took place.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you have yet to prove that it has been altered and when this so called alteration took place.

Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?

How does this change the word? What differing message is there in 1 John 5:7-8 than we find in the Bible generally?

1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I have shown many times that the Father is called God in the Scripture, So is the Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. Yet The Bible is also clear that there is One God not three.. 1 John 5:7 is supported by the rest of scripture.. The Spirit, the water and the Blood all agree as the way to gain forgiveness of sin.. Each shown God's grace through Faith in Jesus.. So verse eight is also supported in the scripture.. How is agreement to the whole an alteration of God's message to us? IHS jim