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Thread: The Thief

  1. #376
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    As participation on his website shows.
    Quick warning... Be very careful of voicing a negative opinion Of Dr Martin. We are all here by the invitation of his daughter. She has asked us to show respect for his memory.. If you can't do that keep your negative comment about him to yourself.. IHS jim

  2. #377
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No he is wrong once again, three days later and Christ had still to go to his Father in Heaven.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Where was He then? Well according to my Sunday School teacher Christ was in Hades (Hell). Paradise had multiple meanings to the Jews, however in this context it clearly meant Abraham's Bosom. Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was a place, it was the good half of Hades. Since all of Hades represented Spiritual death or a separation from God, it was mostly translated as Hell in the scriptures.

    par·a·dise [par-uh-dahys, -dahyz]
    noun
    1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
    2. an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
    3.( often initial capital letter ) Eden .
    4. a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
    5. a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

    1 Pet. 3:18-20
    3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.



    And in that you would be wrong again...

    According to my Sunday School teaching...

    Abraham's Bosom
    The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these p***ages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.
    I never said Jesus stayed in prison for the full 3 days.. His body remained in in the grave for that whole time! His spirit went to Abraham's Bosom and there took captivity (Those that were there comforted in that waiting place) captive to Heaven (Paradise, the presence of God ) to await the day of the resurrection.. Because of the cross No One Goes to Anyplace But To God. Paul was clear on that point:

    Philippians 1:23
    For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better


    Such a result for Paul wasn't restricted just to him, it is the condition of all believers.. All people are either cast into prison to await trial before the Great White Throne, or they enter the rest of God as His children.. I don't discount any verse you have quoted. Jesus hadn't presented Himself in His resurrection body as He asked Mary not to touch Him. He had just come forth from the grave.. Jesus did proclaim the justice of God toward those held in prison. And he did bring the spirits of the righteous into God's presence.

    Paradise is totally different than the place Jesus called Abraham's Bosom.. Paradise is where God is.. It is heaven.. The first of your definitions you quotes is correct in this matter it is heaven, the final abode of the righteous. That agrees with Paul description but disagrees with Joseph Smith.. Paul who had but the actual experience os seeing the Lord but the evidence of blindness and a changed life to back it up.. Smith had neither of those.. Not a single personal evidence of the encounter and not the changed life.. He was a liar before his "Vision" and continued after. It actually went back into his fraudulent practice of gl*** looking for buried treasure.. He was found guilty of gl*** looking and paid a fine for the fraud.. His sin didn't diminish but grew as he aged. He started the practice of adultery convincing married women that they had to become his wives..

    I believe Paul, I have ZERO faith in Smith.. Smith lied and taught other to follow his teaching on marriage, on idolatry. He taught that God was three, not one.. He taught Idolatry.. IHS jim

  3. #378
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    We are all here by the invitation of his daughter.
    there are some people that just don't seem to have manners I guess....

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Quick warning... Be very careful of voicing a negative opinion Of Dr Martin. We are all here by the invitation of his daughter. She has asked us to show respect for his memory.. If you can't do that keep your negative comment about him to yourself.. IHS jim
    I only speak the truth, and I'll accept the consequences for it.

    However, this forum needs me more than i need... or even care about it.

  5. #380
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I only speak the truth, and I'll accept the consequences for it.

    However, this forum needs me more than i need... or even care about it.
    (Jim help me out here with this one thing I remember...)

    It seems to me that about....2 years ago?...that a bunch of Mormon posters were all getting in Jim's face about how it was "they" who kept this forum going not us Christians.

    And then all the Mormons pulled out and I'm told that they would only come here and lurk without logging-on.

    They must have felt that this forum needed them more than they needed to be here.
    They were very open with their views that once they left this forum would shut down.



    Well guess what?.........the Walter Martin forum is still here.



    and patting yourself on the back for "telling" the truth wont cut you any slack for showing bad manners.

    I do not allow people to call Fig a "joke"
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-10-2014 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I never said Jesus stayed in prison for the full 3 days.. His body remained in in the grave for that whole time! His spirit went to Abraham's Bosom and there took captivity (Those that were there comforted in that waiting place) captive to Heaven (Paradise, the presence of God ) to await the day of the resurrection.. Because of the cross No One Goes to Anyplace But To God. Paul was clear on that point:

    Philippians 1:23
    For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better


    Such a result for Paul wasn't restricted just to him, it is the condition of all believers.. All people are either cast into prison to await trial before the Great White Throne, or they enter the rest of God as His children.. I don't discount any verse you have quoted. Jesus hadn't presented Himself in His resurrection body as He asked Mary not to touch Him. He had just come forth from the grave.. Jesus did proclaim the justice of God toward those held in prison. And he did bring the spirits of the righteous into God's presence.

    Paradise is totally different than the place Jesus called Abraham's Bosom.. Paradise is where God is.. It is heaven.. The first of your definitions you quotes is correct in this matter it is heaven, the final abode of the righteous. That agrees with Paul description but disagrees with Joseph Smith.. Paul who had but the actual experience os seeing the Lord but the evidence of blindness and a changed life to back it up.. Smith had neither of those.. Not a single personal evidence of the encounter and not the changed life.. He was a liar before his "Vision" and continued after. It actually went back into his fraudulent practice of gl*** looking for buried treasure.. He was found guilty of gl*** looking and paid a fine for the fraud.. His sin didn't diminish but grew as he aged. He started the practice of adultery convincing married women that they had to become his wives..

    I believe Paul, I have ZERO faith in Smith.. Smith lied and taught other to follow his teaching on marriage, on idolatry. He taught that God was three, not one.. He taught Idolatry.. IHS jim
    LOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

    1. Post useless pla***ude
    2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
    3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

    Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.

  7. #382
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    LOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

    1. Post useless pla***ude
    2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
    3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

    Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.
    Thanks for admitting Joseph Smith jr. Was indeed a bad man!

  8. #383
    James Banta
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    [theway;153565]LOL... Once again the Banta formulaic rant.

    1. Post useless pla***ude
    2. Post an unrelated or misapplied scripture
    3. End with; Joseph Smith was a bad man!

    Honestly... I stopped reading them a long time ago.
    Really? What part was a pla***ude? Oh yes anything I say is a pla***ude.. NONSENSE! How was showing that Paul expected to be with Jesus as His life ended? Not in some waiting hall. But with Jesus where He is.. And where is Jesus now? He is at the right hand of God (Romans 8:34). If Paul, and for that matter all believers are with Jesus as they leave mortality they will be with Him at the right hand of God..

    Was Smith a bad man? YES.. He changes the Bible adding to the very writings that God through Moses commanded should never be changed (Deut 12:32). Was Smith a Bad man? YES according to God the use of divination is against His Law (Deut 18:10-11) but yet that is just how he said the BofM was written.. Was Smith a bad man? YES, according to the Holy Spirit through Paul, a leader of the church was to be the husband of ONE wife (1 Tim 3:2). What did Smith say about that (See D&C 132)..

    I saw where NE called you NOT the way.. By calling the truth of the Bible unrelated or misapplied to the subject without showing one word of evidence that it was unrelated is mere gossip. Seems everyone else here sees the relation of the p***ages I have used other than you.. Maybe that fact that you never read my posts is the reason you fail to see the significance of the verses I use..

    If you don't read my post stop answering them. Adding nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread of conversation makes you sound like you have no idea what is going on around you.. IHS jim

  9. #384
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

    HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

    So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
    The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
    then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

    So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
    The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
    then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.
    Simply repeating your error does not make it true.... The doctrine YOU CREATED based on your false interpretation of scripture does not impress me any.

  11. #386
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Simply repeating your error does not make it true.... The doctrine YOU CREATED based on your false interpretation of scripture does not impress me any.
    You need to EXPLAIN where the errors are in Alan's remarks..

    Paul said that unless our bodies die it can't be quickened. That which we place in the ground isn't what comes from the ground. Ours natural body is sown in corruption; the believer is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it will be raised a spiritual body.

    Paul had full confidence that being absent from the body means that a believer is present with the Lord.. Is Jesus bound in some waiting place? Waiting for the resurrection? Waiting for judgement? No? Then how can we be held in such a place if we, at the time of our deaths, are present with the Lord?

    Should we abandon the scripture and believe you or Smith or some other man that claims authority even as they deny the truths given to us in the Bible, GOD'S WORD? The error here is not Alan's but yours, and by default the errors of mormonism, the errors of the unlearned man Joseph Smith.. A man that because of his ignorance couldn't read the sealed book any more than the learned man could.. He just had a different excuse..

    Those in mormonism that have leaned to read have sealed the word of God off from themselves believing instead the words of a man. They can't read the messages God have given to us because they are sealed to their eyes and their minds by their own pride.. You won't be believe until the day when God condemns you to the Lake of Fire. Then the truth of His word will fill you and bring more pain to your soul than all the fires that your eternal flesh will suffer in it's mists of the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 03-16-2014 at 08:54 PM.

  12. #387
    alanmolstad
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    To be absent from the Body is to be at home with the Lord.

    When does this happen to me?......the answer is that Im in my body right now, and after the resurrection Im in my body then, but for the short time between my death and my resurrection I will be away from my body.

    So this means that at the moment I die the Lord will send angels to take me to him.
    I will be away from the Body,but I will be at home with the Lord during this time.

    Then I will come with Christ and rise up out of the grave in a everlasting body.

    This fits with what Jesus told the thief on the cross, that that very day he would be with him in Paradise.
    I will die, I will be "away from the body" but I will be "at home with the Lord!"

  13. #388
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    To be absent from the Body is to be at home with the Lord.

    When does this happen to me?......the answer is that Im in my body right now, and after the resurrection Im in my body then, but for the short time between my death and my resurrection I will be away from my body.

    So this means that at the moment I die the Lord will send angels to take me to him.
    I will be away from the Body,but I will be at home with the Lord during this time.

    Then I will come with Christ and rise up out of the grave in a everlasting body.

    This fits with what Jesus told the thief on the cross, that that very day he would be with him in Paradise.
    I will die, I will be "away from the body" but I will be "at home with the Lord!"
    It is clear that Paul was specking to physical death here.. For the lost, the spiritual death that entered the world of men at the fall of man never ends. They p*** from this death into the next.. IHS jim

  14. #389
    alanmolstad
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    Another thing we can learn from looking at the thief on the cross is that the door to salvation is always open.
    No works are necessary, you just have to place your hope and faith in the lord, and you have already p***ed from death to life.

  15. #390
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Another thing we can learn from looking at the thief on the cross is that the door to salvation is always open.
    No works are necessary, you just have to place your hope and faith in the lord, and you have already p***ed from death to life.
    Well, not exactly it was his bad works that got him there in the first place!

  16. #391
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Well, not exactly it was his bad works that got him there in the first place!
    His Works got him nailed to a cross,

    His Faith got him with the Lord in Paradise.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-18-2014 at 09:01 AM.

  17. #392
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Works got him nailed to a cross,,,,Faith got him with the Lord in Paradise.
    Nail on the head, yes, and it is LDSinc. Works that get ever TBM nailed to the gates of Hell, along with faith in Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind.

  18. #393
    alanmolstad
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    When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

    So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
    The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
    then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.

  19. #394
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.
    Could you explain how Jesus had not yet been to the Father when He met Mary---and yet--had been in heaven with the thief prior to that point?

  20. #395
    alanmolstad
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    yes....when we die, our body goes into the grave, and our spirit goes to be with the Lord who gave it.

    At the resurrection we rise up out of the grave, and then go up to meet the Lord in the air.


    Thus, what did happen to Jesus willalso happen to me personally too!.....and all Christians.

    So that is what the Bible is talking about, and is the only guide we have to how our own Resurrection will happen step-by-step.


    >>>>>>>So therefore Jesus died.
    His spirit was committed into the hands of the father, (as will be mine at my death also)
    The dead body of Christ went into the grave. (as will mine also at my death)
    At the moment of the resurrection of Christ, the dead body of Christ was changed in it's "nature".....(it went from being mortal and degenerating to everlasting)
    Jesus was seen in the flesh,the same flesh that had hung on the cross by Mary and many believers before he had ascended in his body into the air to meet the Lord.(as I will be seen also before I rise up to meet the Lord in the air)

  21. #396
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.
    dberrie---Could you explain how Jesus had not yet been to the Father when He met Mary---and yet--had been in heaven with the thief prior to that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes....when we die, our body goes into the grave, and our spirit goes to be with the Lord who gave it.

    At the resurrection we rise up out of the grave, and then go up to meet the Lord in the air.
    Such as these?

    Matthew 27:52-53---King James Version (KJV)
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Thus, what did happen to Jesus willalso happen to me personally too!.....and all Christians.
    How does that explain how Jesus was in heaven with the thief--and yet, after His resurrectio--He had yet to ascend to His Father and God?

    So that is what the Bible is talking about, and is the only guide we have to how our own Resurrection will happen step-by-step.

    >>>>>>>So therefore Jesus died.
    His spirit was committed into the hands of the father, (as will be mine at my death also)
    The dead body of Christ went into the grave. (as will mine also at my death)
    At the moment of the resurrection of Christ, the dead body of Christ was changed in it's "nature".....(it went from being mortal and degenerating to everlasting)
    Where do we find it in the scriptures that the dead body of Christ was changed in nature? What is your evidence it was the same body? Is your claim that all the bodies we have in caskets will no longer be there after the resurrection?

    Jesus was seen in the flesh,the same flesh that had hung on the cross
    What is your evidence it was the same body? What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?

  22. #397
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    For he had only been in his body for a few hours at that point.

    But he had been in heaven in spirit with the thief before the resurrection.

    So what this means is that if we use the resurrection of Christ as our guide, then it works out that when we die we go to heaven as a spirit.
    The angels come for us and carry us there so that we are always protected and no one gets lost.
    then when we return with the Lord we rise up out of the grave in a new type of body and then lift up off the earth to meet the lord in the air just as Jesus did.
    .......This is a better way that I try to talk about it that I posted a while ago....

  23. #398
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Such as these?

    Matthew 27:52-53---King James Version (KJV)
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



    How does that explain how Jesus was in heaven with the thief--and yet, after His resurrectio--He had yet to ascend to His Father and God?



    Where do we find it in the scriptures that the dead body of Christ was changed in nature? What is your evidence it was the same body? Is your claim that all the bodies we have in caskets will no longer be there after the resurrection?



    What is your evidence it was the same body? What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?
    Yes, the term "resurrection" is talking about the physical body that we have.
    after his resurrection Jesus was seen by 100s of people....then about 40 days later I think it was when he went up to meet the Lord in the air.


    So it goes like this-
    When I die my dead body will go into the grave and my spirit goes to the Lord .
    Then at the time of the resurrection, the Lord will bringf me with his whole church and we will all rise up out of the grave in the resurrection.
    At that moment I will be in a new everlasting body of flesh and bone.

    In this new body I will rise up and go to be with the Lord forever....


    This is what happened to Jesus and he is our only guide as tohow this will all work out.
    So it gives me a great faith that because I have seen God raise Jesus from the grave he will in the very same manner raise me from the grave too!


    That is the hope I bring to the people that are willing to hear and listen.

  24. #399
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    ?


    What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?
    Tom doubted that it was the same body too.......LOL

  25. #400
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    .Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    HINT - When any of us die, even Jesus, our dead body goes into the ground, but our spirit goes to be with the father...
    This is why the Thief on the cross was able to be with Jesus in Paradise that very same day he died.

    Then when we rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body, we rise up off the earth and meet the Lord in the air, just as Jesus did.

    This is why Jesus told Mary that he had not yet left to be with the Father, as he had not at that time ascended and did not ascend for another 40 some days.
    Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

    That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.

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