Question for BrianH

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Brian,

Using your premise and ***umptions for the Triune God, when did God create the law of cause and affect?

Or did He even create that law?

[BrianH]

Using your premise and ***umptions for the Triune God, when did God create the law of cause and affect?

Or did He even create that law?

Lets begin by correcting your terms. The doctrine of the trinity is not an "***umption". It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is based on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible identifies three (and only three) persons as God.

Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.

-BH

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.

-BH

So God created the law of cause and affect without using the law of cause and affect to do so?

[BrianH]

BH>>Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.
F>So God created the law of cause and affect without using the law of cause and affect to do so?

Yes. That is correct. The laws that govern the physical universe are only binding on the physical universe. Furthermore they cannot be said to have existed before the universe itself came into existence because the laws themselves are dependent on the things they govern. For example, there would be no laws of gravity if there was no m*** or space. There can be no laws of thermodynamics if there is no energy.

This will be hard for you to understand, because you think that God is a THING, a corporeal object located in space and time (on or near some celestial body called "Kolob"). The truth is, God - the one and only TRUE God, the God of the Bible- is NOT confined to the physical universe. He CREATED it.

-BH

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[akaSeerone]

Fig.....you do realize it was the Pharisees that liked to play word games with Jesus?

Why are you here playing word games?

The laws of the universe came about because God created the universe. God spoke and the universe came into existence. The laws are a by product of the universe coming into existence.

Another example of this principle if found in:

Isaiah 45:6-7

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Darkness is the by product of God making/creating light.

Evil is the by product of God making/creating peace.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Yes. That is correct. The laws that govern the physical universe are only binding on the physical universe. Furthermore they cannot be said to have existed before the universe itself came into existence because the laws themselves are dependent on the things they govern. For example, there would be no laws of gravity if there was no m*** or space. There can be no laws of thermodynamics if there is no energy.

This will be hard for you to understand, because you think that God is a THING, a corporeal object located in space and time (on or near some celestial body called "Kolob"). The truth is, God - the one and only TRUE God, the God of the Bible- is NOT confined to the physical universe. He CREATED it.

-BH

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So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect".

I understand you now, Brian.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect"?

Why ask him again?

He's already told you what he thinks, and I think you should just run with that as he does when we share what we think with him.

Obviously, according to what BrianH has already said, BrianH doesn't consider God to be the "law" or the "cause" in your "law of cause and effect" scenario.

I think we can now dismiss his comments without any further ado.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

The laws of the universe came about because God created the universe. God spoke and the universe came into existence. The laws are a by product of the universe coming into existence.

If God spoke and then came "being", it seems that God knew about the law of cause and affect before everything came into being.

When you start talking about 'this came "because" of that', you are talking about cause and affect. There cannot be a "first cause" unless there is already in place a law of cause and affect.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Why ask him again?

He's already told you what he thinks, and I think you should just run with that as he does when we share what we think with him.

Obviously, according to what BrianH has already said, BrianH doesn't consider God to be the "cause" in your "cause and effect" scenario.

I think we can now dismiss his comments without any further ado.

Yea, I feel like I'm trying to speak with someone from another planet who doesn't even hold basic "existence" in common with me. It's futile.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

If God spoke and then came "being", it seems that God knew about the law of cause and affect before everything came into being.

When you start talking about 'this came "because" of that', you are talking about cause and affect. There cannot be a "first cause" unless there is already in place a law of cause and affect.

That is true, Fig, but getting someone like Andy to accept that as truth is a pretty big and almost impossible challenge, don't you think ?

But, hey, if you feel like going for it, just go for it.

Maybe today is your day to be "lucky".

Do you feel lucky today ?

Well, do ya ?

[BrianH]

So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect".

...Only the cause of God creating it. God himself is uncaused and he is the cause of the existence of the universe, according to the Bible. By contrast, the very EXISTENCE of the theoretical (and apparently imaginary) Mormon "God" is dependant upon the universe for his existence.

I understand you now, Brian.

The question is, do you understand the truth before you reject it?

-BH

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[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

If God spoke and then came "being", it seems that God knew about the law of cause and affect before everything came into being.

When you start talking about 'this came "because" of that', you are talking about cause and affect. There cannot be a "first cause" unless there is already in place a law of cause and affect.

It's Cause and Effect. A cause of the fire was a gas leak, the effect was burning down the house and the occupants were affected in adverse ways.

macg

[akaSeerone]

God spoke and things were.....there had to be a beginning for everything God created.....even "cause and effect."

Reminds me of .....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5sSEkZ86ts

You are trying to play word games and this Christian forum is not going to let you non Christians get away with that. Amen

The bottom line here is GOD CREATED EX NIHILO, ....once again proving Smith lied and mormonis false.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Andrew, why did God have to SPEAK in order to create stuff out of nothing? Why couldn't He just THINK it into existence? Who was there to hear Him speak anyhow? Is it logical to speak when there is no one but yourself to hear it?

[akaSeerone]

Why do you continually try to lower God by limiting Him to mankind in all our weakness and being created beings?

Jesus gave us a hint to your question......John 6:63

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:63 (The Message)

61-65 Jesus sensed that his disciples were having a hard time with this and said, "Does this throw you completely? What would happen if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where he came from? The Spirit can make life. Sheer muscle and willpower don't make anything happen. Every word I've spoken to you is a Spirit-word, and so it is life-making. But some of you are resisting, refusing to have any part in this." (Jesus knew from the start that some weren't going to risk themselves with him. He knew also who would betray him.) He went on to say, "This is why I told you earlier that no one is capable of coming to me on his own. You get to me only as a gift from the Father."

Isaiah 55:10-11 (King James Version)

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:10-11 (The Message)

8-11 "I don't think the way you think.
The way you work isn't the way I work."
God's Decree.
"For as the sky soars high above earth,
so the way I work surp***es the way you work,
and the way I think is beyond the way you think.
Just as rain and snow descend from the skies
and don't go back until they've watered the earth,
Doing their work of making things grow and blossom,
producing seed for farmers and food for the hungry,
So will the words that come out of my mouth
not come back empty-handed.
They'll do the work I sent them to do,
they'll complete the ***ignment I gave them.

I am satisfied with just believing the Bible and do not question God in such trivial matters....The Bible says God spoke and things were.....to me that is totally mind boggling and awesome. Amen

Andy

[nrajeff]

I agree that your theology is mind-boggling.

[Tatian]

When you can't refute the scriptures then attack the person.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I agree that your theology is mind-boggling.

I saw no personal theology there just quotes from the scripture.. You seem to belittle it. I really understand that you can't get your mind around such teaching.. It requires the Holy Spirit to come to an understanding of such things. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

I gave you scripture to answer the question and that is all you have to say!

I take it you did not even read or consider the Scripture I gave because you did not refute any of it. How could you...it is the Truth.

Troll, troll, troll yourself all over the net.....

God will say to you, did I know you, nyet!

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

...Only the cause of God creating it. God himself is uncaused and he is the cause of the existence of the universe, according to the Bible.

.

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

One of the ways I see it Fig, is that in Heaven the physical laws we are limited to here will not exist and things will be very different and exciting there.

Jesus gave us an insight into that by walking on water, multiplying the bread and fish, calling Lazarus out of the grave etc.

the law of cause and effect was created when this realm was spoke into existence and said law helps us understand our universe.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

One of the ways I see it Fig, is that in Heaven the physical laws we are limited to here will not exist and things will be very different and exciting there.

Jesus gave us an insight into that by walking on water, multiplying the bread and fish, calling Lazarus out of the grave etc.

the law of cause and effect was created when this realm was spoke into existence and said law helps us understand our universe.

Andy

So there is no law of cause and effect in God's realm?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So there is no law of cause and effect in God's realm?

You are starting to sound like a very scratched broken record Fig.

What is the point with this cause and effect?



Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You are starting to sound like a very scratched broken record Fig.

What is the point with this cause and effect?

Andy

Simple. I believe that the law of "cause and effect" is not an EFFECT, (nor it is an AFFECT) of some first cause.

[BrianH]

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

First of all, the law of cause and effect is what we observe in the physical universe which God created and thereby exhibited his own will and nature as creator. It is not evident in any form OUTSIDE or BEFORE the physical universe. God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator. Secondly, if there was no physical universe, the laws that govern it would not only be impossible, but unnecessary. The laws of gravity, for example cannot even possibly exist apart from m***, space and time. Thirdly, the Mormon "God", being by definition only a "demigod" - an exalted creatrue, is necessarily subject to the laws of the physical universe. This means he is lying when he claims to be the creator and master of those laws.

-BH

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