What does it mean

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Just because I believe it's POSSIBLE that it could have possibly have maybe been Matthew who made the error, that doesn't mean that I believe it was Matthew. I think I even said so, earlier--that my belief is that it wasn't Matthew, it was probably a scribe or copyist.

So you believe that the original text had an error. Is that your position?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Just as you said: The Bible itself was altered when someone inserted a late addition into it--an addition that shouldn't have been inserted. Which resulted in an altered Bible.

And how did that change the Bible since we know when the addition took place and what was said in earlier m****cripts?

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148095]If all Bible messages have been kept 100% free from alterations, then how do you explain the Johannine Comma?

Is 1 John 5:7 a teaching that is not seen as doctrine in other places in the Bible? Is it not taught that the Father is God, or that Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit is God, and yet that God is one Lord?? Yes it is so to have it taught that John agreed with that doctrine is not a surprise. Was this verse in the original text? The doctrine is! As I have said there can be many different wording that conveys the same message.. The Bible (NT) was penned in Ancient Greek. When that is translated into English different words are used.. NUMA (The Greek word for breath) is not English so we subs***ute spirit in it's place. 1 John 5:7 is not planting a change in the meaning of the scripture. It is a filling of the doctrine of God. There is no alteration to the word in that p***age.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus (John 3:15-16, Eph 2:8-9). If someone comes after that and teaches that we are saved by grace but only after all we can do, that is a change and must seen as such. To change God's intent is to belittle the Biblical message. Mormonism the only organization that has done so. There were others that would sell the right to commit sin. Selling sin is not found in the Bible and is just as evil as putting works on an equal plane with faith as the key to open the grace of God to those Jesus died to save..

YOU deny the power of God to bring back doctrines and leadership structure that got abandoned by post-apostolic Christendom.
YOU deny God's power to set up a church in the latter days that has apostles as leaders.

A leadership structure that was abandoned in post-apostolic Christendom? Are you specking of Apostles? The Christian Church has not abandoned the authority of the Apostles? We just cling to the truth that Jesus chose 12. These 12 are the Apostles of the Lamb. There can be no others.. In the wider meaning of the word apostles there are many.. These are those that dedicate their full lives to missionary work. They take the word of God, the message of His grace through the blood of Jesus to the unsaved word.. By the Church the word apostle that is derived from the Greek apostolos, meaning "one who is sent." A modern-day apostle would typically function as a church planter—one who is sent out by the body of Christ to spread the gospel and establish new communities of believers. Can anyone be an Apostle like the 12 are Apostles? According to the Bible the answer is NO..

Acts 1:20-22
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bisho***** let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

So to be one of the 12 the Holy Spirit teaches us that a man must be one that accompanied Jesus all the time Jesus walked among us. from His baptism to the Day He ascended.. Not a man alive today can meet that requirement. Again Jeff, while I don't deny that a man can be sent forth to lift the name of Jesus to the unsaved and therefore be an apostle, I do deny that a any man can claim to be one of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.. Jesus said "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:23).. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are seen as alive to God then why not the 12? If they are alive then not one of then needs to be replaced..

It is you that is denying God's power. Jesus promised that He would build His Church and even the gates of hell wouldn't be able prevail against it. But mormonism teaches through one of it's Apostles that that is just what happened. That the Gates of hell did prevail against the church and destroyed it..

Jesus established his kingdom on the earth the kingdoms of this world made war against the kingdom of God, established eighteen centuries ago, and they prevailed against it, and the kingdom ceased to exist" (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, page 125)

IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that the original text had an error. Is that your position?

Was it something in

"I believe the error was made by a copyist"

that led you think that I believe that the original text had an error?

Or was it my claim that of fallible humans and God, only God doesn't make mistakes?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Was it something in

"I believe the error was made by a copyist"

that led you think that I believe that the original text had an error?

Or was it my claim that of fallible humans and God, only God doesn't make mistakes?

Then why on earth did you mention Matthew as possibly being the one responsible?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

"I believe the error was made by a copyist"

So now you believe that what Matthew wrote down was correct and that this so called error crept into the text at a later point in time. Can you provide any evidence at all that this is the case?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then why on earth did you mention Matthew as possibly being the one responsible?

Uh, because I have learned that if you say "That is totally impossible" too much, you will eventually have to admit you were wrong. Ask the people who declared that it was impossible for coelacanths to still be living in the 20th century.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So now you believe that what Matthew wrote down was correct

When did I NOT believe that?

and that this so called error crept into the text at a later point in time. Can you provide any evidence at all that this is the case?

So you're asking for evidence that it wasn't Matthew who was responsible for the error?

Sorry, I don't know of any evidence that gets Matthew off the hook. I am just basically relying on faith and logic to support MY belief that Matthew got it right and therefore it was some later dude who made the mistake.

Don't you want to do the same? Or do you have a vested interest in pinning the blame on Matthew?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

When did I NOT believe that?

When you said that it was possible that Matthew made a mistake.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're asking for evidence that it wasn't Matthew who was responsible for the error?

Sounds like you are distancing yourself from your prior comment that it was Matthew that made a mistake.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sorry, I don't know of any evidence that gets Matthew off the hook.

Oh I spoke too soon. Now you think Matthew made a mistake and the original his original writings were incorrect? Which is it?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you said that it was possible that Matthew made a mistake.

Somehow--and I don't know for sure how--you need to understand that

"I believe in the possibility that something happened" is NOT THE SAME AS

"I believe it actually happened."

I will try to think up a way to get you to understand this fact.

[nrajeffreturns]

Okay, I may have come up with a way to help you get this:


If you buy a lottery ticket, I would say there is a possibility that you will win the million dollar prize.

But do I believe you WILL win the prize?

NO

Did that help?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Somehow--and I don't know for sure how--you need to understand that

"I believe in the possibility that something happened" is NOT THE SAME AS

"I believe it actually happened."

I will try to think up a way to get you to understand this fact.

You are the one who said that there was a mistake in the text that we have now but you don't seem to have a clue when this took place nor have any explanation for the fact that not a single m****cript supports your belief.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Okay, I may have come up with a way to help you get this:


If you buy a lottery ticket, I would say there is a possibility that you will win the million dollar prize.

But do I believe you WILL win the prize?

NO

Did that help?

It doesn't help me a bit to try and find out what you really believe because as soon as you make a stand either way you will have a hard time defending your false position. That is why you are waffling.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Uh, because I have learned that if you say "That is totally impossible" too much, you will eventually have to admit you were wrong. Ask the people who declared that it was impossible for coelacanths to still be living in the 20th century.

Unless Jesus lied to us it is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE that the Bible is erred.. PERIOD.. I am not wrong.. I have shown you already how is is that Isaiah in cited as the source for the p***age you cited. You wish to look for errors in the text I look only that Jesus is God and therefore has the power to keep His word pure.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Was it something in

"I believe the error was made by a copyist"

that led you think that I believe that the original text had an error?

Or was it my claim that of fallible humans and God, only God doesn't make mistakes?

What did you say? "God doesn't make mistakes" Man your mormon god made many a mistake when giving your one and only true prophet of all the worlds past and to come when he dictated the originall book of mormon to Joseph Smith jr.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

What did you say? "God doesn't make mistakes" Man your mormon god made many a mistake when giving your one and only true prophet of all the worlds past and to come when he dictated the originall book of mormon to Joseph Smith jr.

So using your logic, Jesus made a mistake when He called Judas Iscariot to be one of His proclaimers of the gospel and of Jesus' divinity.

You made the same mistake that Jim and Billy seem to have made: When the MEN whom God called to do stuff for Him make mistakes, you reach the false-dichotomy FALLACIOUS conclusion that either God makes mistakes, or the men were not called by Him.

You need to re-read the scriptural accounts of men who were called by God but who made mistakes, and maybe someday a light will come on and you will realize that there is a third possibility: That God doesn't make mistakes even when He calls fallible men to do stuff for Him.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So using your logic, Jesus made a mistake when He called Judas Iscariot to be one of His proclaimers of the gospel and of Jesus' divinity.

You made the same mistake that Jim and Billy seem to have made: When the MEN whom God called to do stuff for Him make mistakes, you reach the false-dichotomy FALLACIOUS conclusion that either God makes mistakes, or the men were not called by Him.

You need to re-read the scriptural accounts of men who were called by God but who made mistakes, and maybe someday a light will come on and you will realize that there is a third possibility: That God doesn't make mistakes even when He calls fallible men to do stuff for Him.

So, are you saying your mormon god made all them mistakes on purpose? Maybe he was stuck on "it cam to p***" to offten to realize he was making so many boo,boos.
Once again your mormon godthink will not allow you to realize it is impossible for the Book of Mormon to be so full of mistakes, mis-spelling, and grammar goofs.
Go back and read the story of how it was translated from the mormon god to the magic hat to Joseph Smith jr, and finally from Joseph Smith jr. To his scribs. Either the story was made up, or your mormon god went to the same elementary school I attend.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So using your logic, Jesus made a mistake when He called Judas Iscariot to be one of His proclaimers of the gospel and of Jesus' divinity.

What mistake are you talking about?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

So, are you saying your mormon god made all them mistakes on purpose?

No, of course not. What a ridiculous fallacious, straw-man conclusion--so fallacious it's laughable.

Once again your mormon godthink will not allow you to realize it is impossible for the Book of Mormon to be so full of mistakes, mis-spelling, and grammar goofs.

You're saying it's impossible for the Book of Mormon to have a lot of mistakes in it? I think I almost agree with you! Congratulations. But you were wrong in claiming that my "mormon godthink" wouldn't allow me to realize this. I am reluctant to say it's impossible, since a lot of things are possible no matter how unlikely, but I will state that I believe it unlikely that the BOM has a large number of real mistakes that matter.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What mistake are you talking about?

The "mistake" (according to antiLDSthink) of calling an apostle who would mess up.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

No, of course not. What a ridiculous fallacious, straw-man conclusion--so fallacious it's laughable.


You're saying it's impossible for the Book of Mormon to have a lot of mistakes in it? I think I almost agree with you! Congratulations. But you were wrong in claiming that my "mormon godthink" wouldn't allow me to realize this. I am reluctant to say it's impossible, since a lot of things are possible no matter how unlikely, but I will state that I believe it unlikely that the BOM has a large number of real mistakes that matter.

It's possible that the dark side of the Moon is made of cheese too, but.....
Once again your mormonthink make impossible for you to see the forest for the Hill Cumorah. According to your head prophet in charge and his co-horts; their story surrounding the WWLDS event there could not have been one mistake, no not one unless you are willingly admitting to the mormon god false and mistakes.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The "mistake" (according to antiLDSthink) of calling an apostle who would mess up.

But why did you say that Jesus made a mistake?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But why did you say that Jesus made a mistake?

Why did you say that God doesn't exist?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why did you say that God doesn't exist?

You didn't answer my question. Why did you say that Jesus made a mistake?