Derogatory terms part deux

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have no issue with a Mormon being told there are in a CULT, as that is what they are in.
I dont have any problem calling them "Mormons"....or "followers of J Smith"


I would no use the term "Mormon Christians" for 2 reasons...#1-its simply wrong and #2- it's misleading.

Mormons are not Christians,and so if I tried to connect the term "Christian" to the word "Mormon" I would likely be guilty of intentionally being misleading.

Clearly that is against the rules and /or spirit of this forum.

bump......

[OceanCoast]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have no issue with a Mormon being told there are in a CULT, as that is what they are in.

It’s written Jesus said “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you;” Matt 7:12.. and this is also affirmed in Luke 6:31. It’s the Golden rule.


So as you say you “you have no issue with a Mormon being told there are in a CULT” then we can presume that you will have no issue with others telling you that you are a member of a CULT correct? Maybe you agree.. Let’s examine.


Definition of CULT from Websters.


1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual;
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see spurious 2);
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book) criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity; especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b : the object of such devotion
c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fans The film has a cult following.


Now the first two definitions certainly would apply to ALL religious veneration, including Christianity and ALL it’s denominations. Thus it would be accurate to say you are a member of a CULT.. but do you want that label?


The 3rd definition is one that was probably first used by a Minister of American Dutch reform movement J K van Beelan a century ago to refer to un-orthodox Christian movements. His use of the term was not malevolent, but a subs***ute for and to refrain from calling such movements ‘Heresy’ and Heretics. And yet I don’t believe that is how you intended to use the word either.


In the 1950-60’s a rather self-appointed minister named Walter Martin, began using the term in a malevolent and pejorative sense. Declaring basically any group that disagreed with Martin’s narrow views of Christianity were ‘cultist’ But in so doing he created a cult of his own. A counter-cult CULT. One that has little resemblance to anything Christ is said to have taught..


So the questions goes out to you.. Do you want others to refer to you and your faith as a CULT?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by OceanCoast

So the questions goes out to you.. Do you want others to refer to you and your faith as a CULT?

I dont care what they do, as long as they stay within the stated rules...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have no issue with a Mormon being told there are in a CULT, as that is what they are in.
I dont have any problem calling them "Mormons"....or "followers of J Smith"

I would no use the term "Mormon Christians" for 2 reasons...#1-its simply wrong and #2- it's misleading.

Mormons are not Christians,and so if I tried to connect the term "Christian" to the word "Mormon" I would likely be guilty of intentionally being misleading.

Just so you won't be misleading--when you use the term "Christian"--are you referring to the true Christianity of the Biblical text--or the theology which preaches there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for His grace unto life?

2 John 9--King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just so you won't be misleading--when you use the term "Christian"--.

Please refer to the rules ...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just so you won't be misleading--when you use the term "Christian"--are you referring to the true Christianity of the Biblical text--or the theology which preaches there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for His grace unto life?

2 John 9--King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Please refer to the rules ...

What do the rules state about your opinion of what Christianity is?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do the rules state about your opinion of what Christianity is?

I dont really care what your or anyone's opinion of any religion is.

I dont try to write the posts of others...

So if any guest wants to refer to anything by a term that is within the rules, I dont really care.


As long what gets posted on the forum is within the letter and spirit of the listed rules, I dont and should not have any opinion on their personal views.


If you are asking for my own personal views?...then I would refer you to a video that I have used many times to help people understand how I use the term "Christian" and the word "CULT".....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostJust so you won't be misleading--when you use the term "Christian"--are you referring to the true Christianity of the Biblical text--or the theology which preaches there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for His grace unto life?

2 John 9--King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Please refer to the rules ...

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post What do the rules state about your opinion of what Christianity is?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont really care what your or anyone's opinion of any religion is.

I dont try to write the posts of others...

So if any guest wants to refer to anything by a term that is within the rules, I dont really care.

I'm not sure how you are plugging your post into the conversation.

My question was--how are you relating your answer--"Please refer to the rules"--to my question in the opening post above?

[alanmolstad]

First, I find that posted comments that contain a mash-up of quotes from all over the place are just gobbledygook to me and I dont read them.



as far as my point about reading the rules goes-
I am referring to the ***le of this topic...and I am strongly suggesting to people that if they have a question about what is and is not allowed under the rules?..that they should seek first their answer by reading the listed rules.
Maintaining their comments to be within the listed rules is my point.

Now what are the rules?

This is - "From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

I get a lot of advice sent my way as to who should be allowed or not allowed to use the term "Christian"
My answer is that if you read the rules you will see my opinion on the matter of the use of the term "christian" in ***ociation with the many Mormon topics you see on the board..

aside from that I dont really care what you guys say about whatever topic you guys are dealing with at the time.

Just enjoy yourselves, and show good manners to each other.

[alanmolstad]

so lets be very clear then...

"Mormon theology is not Christian theology."


This is the first thing.


next we read

"Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading"


there you have it....

[alanmolstad]

so.....as we read under the rules we see the way to use the word "Christian" and how not to use it to avoid mix-ups.

What we therefore see is that you can use the term "Christian" when you refer to non-Mormon theology, for as the rules state very clearly, " the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology"

The aim of this rule is to help avoid misleading people and being more accurate.


So in real life how does it work?
So in real life how it works on this forum is that we always should to make sure we are not talking about Mormon theology when we speak of something as being "Christian" , as in "Christian theology" for it is the well-known, listed position of this website that Mormonism is to not be confused with being Christian ....and so posting the term "LDS Christian" or a "Mormon Christian" etc, is not acceptable.



other than making sure people follow the listed rules in their comments < I really dont care what people post, or what name they give stuff..

Im not here to write their comments for them...and I could not care less most of the time.

I only wish to make sure all play by the same listed rules that all did agree to maintain when they first registered on this message board.




So when people ask me "What do you mean by the term "Christian" I point them to the rules and tell them that what I mean is "Not Mormon theology"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so lets be very clear then...

"Mormon theology is not Christian theology."

Fair enough. Then you won't mind posting for us what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I'll be glad to start first, in what I find in the Biblical NT ---which defies the theology which some refer to as "Christian":

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Fair enough. Then you won't mind posting for us what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I'll be glad to start first, in what I find in the Biblical NT ---which defies the theology which some refer to as "Christian":

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The answer to your question is addressed at the 1:00 point of this video.




there you see how Walter Martin address your question and answers it and shows us that there are two types of "justification" talked about in the Bible...

One of works before men.
One of Faith before God.

[alanmolstad]

Now, lets address the Christian understanding of the place of works in the story of a person's salvation.

This question is answered at the 3:39 point of the video

[alanmolstad]

so...now go look at both of the videos I have posted that will give you a very clear understanding of the issues we are dealing with here, and then decide for yourself if what Walter has taught us is in agreement with your own personal views?

If it is?...fine, then that is great and we can move on to some other point.



This all fits with the story we talked about here the other day, where a man went to Jesus and asked him about doing stuff to have eternal life.
And at first Jesus points to the law, and the guy shoots back that he has always kept the Law,

This is how some of us want to think salvation hangs on,,,our actions,,,our works...they think that the things we do matter to god....
They think that can earn salvation via works.

and then Jesus undercuts this mind-set that doing the Law can save anyone when he says the guy still "Lacks"



the guy kept the Law for his whole life, and in the end learns its a moot point.

The Law does not save or even add a bit to my salvation.

Galatians 2:21 " I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so...now go look at both of the videos I have posted that will give you a very clear understanding of the issues we are dealing with here,

IMO--Posting videos is not the answer to what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

Nor does it answer why the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But that scripture is friendly to true Christianity--and what will find in the LDS church.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IMO--........

Im sure I can start a sentence with "IMO" that might differ...

The videos give the correct information in an easy to grasp manner.
If there is some part of the video you would like to ask about, or have a comment about?...then that would be fine.

The videos are posted to be of help to anyone interested...all you have to do is to be willing to move that computer mouse over a little and go "click"...

But like a horse led to water....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im sure I can start a sentence with "IMO" that might differ...

The videos give the correct information in an easy to grasp manner.

Posting videos is not the answer to what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

Nor does it answer why the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But that scripture is friendly to true Christianity--and what will find in the LDS church.

[alanmolstad]

I can also copy/paste too...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I can also copy/paste too...

Could you copy and paste us a Biblical answer to my question?

Alan--you still have not posted what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

I'm not looking for what your opinion is--or a video--but actual scriptures. You do believe the Bible sets the standard for truth?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you copy and paste us a Biblical answer to my question?

]

As I said before, the James 2:24 verse is talked about at the :53 seconds point of the video...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As I said before, the James 2:24 verse is talked about at the :53 seconds point of the video...

That's fine. But I'm looking for you to post Biblical scriptures, found in the Biblical NT--which demonstrate doctrines is not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go. That should not be that hard--given your stance here:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post so lets be very clear then..."Mormon theology is not Christian theology."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That should not be that hard--given your stance here:

"Mormon theology is not Christian theology."

I believe Im quoting the rules that govern this forum, rules that are enforced.
I believe the issue I was addressing was that lots of people try to offer me advice as to what should or should not be considered 'Christian" and i simply point out that the Forum's rules set down the way we are to follow here, in that this site takes the position that "Mormon theology is NOT christian theology"...this is why we do not see anyone claim to be a "LDS or Mormon Christian" as the rules are very clear that such a term is misleading and will not be allowed.

So far as I have seen, this rule is being followed by everyone correctly and I see no reason for any debate on this settled matter.


if a person were to want to know why Mormonism is not considered Christian?, i suggest they make Google a friend and do their own research.
because I dont really care what people believe.



Now if you are asking why I personally believe that Mormonism is not Christian?..I already answered that,,,,for THAT WAS WHAT THE VIDEO WAS FOR!!!!!!!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Mormon theology is not Christian theology." I believe Im quoting the rules that govern this forum, rules that are enforced.

That's good, Alan--but I am asking you to back your statement with Biblical NT scripture, IE--what do you find in the Biblical NT, which is not found in the LDS church? If you truly believe what you testified to--that should not be so hard:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post so lets be very clear then..."Mormon theology is not Christian theology."

Alan--there are those who make statements such as yours--but when asked to put up the goods, as to Biblical NT scripture--they stutter-step, hem-haw, and divert into something that has no bearing on the request, go to videos, straw man attacks, personal opinions, etc.

If you believe the LDS church is not a Christian church--then you, nor anyone else--should have any trouble finding Biblical NT scriptures which are not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go.

I certainly would not have any trouble finding scriptures which violate faith alone theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--the space is yours. Please post the Biblical NT scriptures which are not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go.

[alanmolstad]

again,,,thats was what the video was for...