No Rapture. Are you relieved, disappointed, or indifferent?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

"Camping's PR aide, Tom Evans, told the L.A. Times that the group is "disappointed" that 200 million true believers weren't lifted up to heaven on Sa****ay while everyone else suffered and eventually died as a series of earthquakes and famine destroyed the Earth. "You can imagine we're pretty disappointed, but the word of God is still true," Evans said. "We obviously went too far, and that's something we need to learn from." The group posted 2,000 billboards around the country warning of the rapture, while Camping--an uncertified fundamentalist minister--spread the word on his radio show."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...orld-didnt-end

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers? Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

[BrianH]

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers?

Who knows? Certainly not the Bible.

Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

I would guess its too low.

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

In some ways. For example, the Bible states rather explicitly at 1 Thes 4:15-17 that there will be those who are living on the earth when Christ comes to "rapture" (Gk: ἁρπάζω "harpazo" - to be "caught up") his church. The number, the timing and other details are not revealed.

Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour.

Camping said that he knew the day and the hour.

Turns out Jesus was right, and this Camping guy was wrong.

No big surprise there.

-BH

.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

D and C 109
"*75That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be acaught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord;"

I guess it is similar to what you believe but in a time frame earlier than LDS believe.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers? Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

Im not sure about the 200 million number.

I have no clue if that number is right, or high or low....

And i dont believe in many of the ideas about the Return of Christ taught by Camping

[robsmom]

Camping is not reading the same Bible as millions of Christians. We are not to set dates. As for the exact # of Christians, I would say that is too low a number but only God knows those who are His.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by robsmom

Camping is not reading the same Bible as millions of Christians. We are not to set dates. As for the exact # of Christians, I would say that is too low a number but only God knows those who are His.

Jesus told us there are few who find and walk the narrow path.. When I am asked how many Christians there are I agree with Jesus and say "FEW".. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am asked how many Christians there are I agree with Jesus and say "FEW".. IHS jim

Jim what are the requirements for being a Christian? Are certain works or actions required in your opinion?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

"Camping's PR aide, Tom Evans, told the L.A. Times that the group is "disappointed" that 200 million true believers weren't lifted up to heaven on Sa****ay while everyone else suffered and eventually died as a series of earthquakes and famine destroyed the Earth. "You can imagine we're pretty disappointed, but the word of God is still true," Evans said. "We obviously went too far, and that's something we need to learn from." The group posted 2,000 billboards around the country warning of the rapture, while Camping--an uncertified fundamentalist minister--spread the word on his radio show."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...orld-didnt-end

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers? Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

Just as when Smith put a date on the return of Jesus, Camping is just as much a cultist as Smith ever was.. It is clear that a real man of God would just believe Jesus as He explained the time of His coming would be:

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Camping took that prophecy away from God and ***igned to himself.. Joseph Smith did the same thing:

"President Smith then stated ... it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, volume 2, page 182)

Both men made a prediction both men failed in that prediction. Both men are condemned by the Lord as false prophets for this failure in the p***age on how to identify a false prophet God gave us in:

Deut 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The sin in this p***age is not just Smith's or Camping's it belongs to all who ignore this p***age, the real message of God to Him people, and revere either of this men as a prophet of God.. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just as when Smith put a date on the return of Jesus,

What date was that? Don't just provide some link to a Russ Bales website or some CARM thread like Russ does, but provide an actual date.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

What date was that? Don't just provide some like to a Russ Bales website or some CARM thread like Russ does, but provide an actual date.

I can see you have no use for references.. Smith gave this "prophecy" in Kirkland on February 14, 1835. the reference is the same as before..(DHoftheChurch, vol 2, page 182) can you make the proper calculations or do you need that done for you too? IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I can see you have no use for references.. Smith gave this "prophecy" in Kirkland on February 14, 1835. the reference is the same as before..(DHoftheChurch, vol 2, page 182) can you make the proper calculations or do you need that done for you too? IHS jim

No actual quote? No actual date?

So, you did not tell the truth, then, when you said that he put a date on his return.

I didn't think so.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

No actual quote? No actual date?

So, you did not tell the truth, then, when you said that he put a date on his return.

I didn't think so.

Here it is again.. an actual quote.. Now you have been spoon feed the quote, given the context of the reference, and shown the date it was given. Do you need me to do the math for you too or can you handle adding 56 to 1835? Here is a hint it's 1891..

President Smith then stated ... "it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, volume 2, page 182)

I don't blame you for wanting this not to be true but your excuses sound identical to those that the followers of Camping are coming up with. That to your shame for singing praise to Smith even when he gave false prophecy after false prophecy.. The last time I said, Smith is a false prophet, this I was greeted with a so are you. But I was never shown that anything I teach goes against the teaching of the Bible, that I have given a false witness of God, or have I gave a prophecy that has failed and I defy you to come up with anything. Anything unbiblical in my teachings. Anything I said that is false in way of prophecy.. You can't! IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Joseph's own words as recorded in D&C 49:6-7, March 1831

6And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—

7 I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes.


Then again in 1844, Joseph says:

I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers

At one point Joseph was left to wonder if the Savior was going to come before Joseph lived to the age of 85 (1891). Joseph was left without anything clear on the issue of when he would come, but thought that perhaps it would be after he reached the age of 85. Joseph never lived that long as we know.

He wrote in Section 130:
I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Joseph's own words as recorded in D&C 49:6-7, March 1831

6And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—

7 I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes.


Then again in 1844, Joseph says:

I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers

At one point Joseph was left to wonder if the Savior was going to come before Joseph lived to the age of 85 (1891). Joseph was left without anything clear on the issue of when he would come, but thought that perhaps it would be after he reached the age of 85. Joseph never lived that long as we know.

He wrote in Section 130:
I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

And yet he allowed his authority over men by the self appointed office of prophet to corrupt him so that he had recorded in his history that the Lord would come in 56 years.. Power corrupts you know.. And Smith became more and more corrupt as time went on, as is the pattern for all cultic leaders, ie Jim Jones, and David Koresh.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I just now saw on DRUDGE that the date for the end of the world was changed....its now some time in Oct.

typical.....

The JWs and the 7th day Adventists had to do the same thing when their dates failed.

another trick it to predict the end of the world, and when the date fails you say that the world did end, "Spiritually"....

[neverending]

Fig,
Actually I was disappointed. As I watch our world spiralling down with war, natural disasters, hate and murders knowing that things will only get worse; I welcomed being Raptured. Far to many have turned their backs on God and have gone their own way....yeah we see how well that is working.
Nothing could be better than to be with God, feel His love, have Him wrap me in His arms and to have peace.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by neverending

Fig,
Actually I was disappointed. As I watch our world spiralling down with war, natural disasters, hate and murders knowing that things will only get worse; I welcomed being Raptured. Far to many have turned their backs on God and have gone their own way....yeah we see how well that is working.
Nothing could be better than to be with God, feel His love, have Him wrap me in His arms and to have peace.

Let me guess though.. It wasn't just this prediction that is disappointing? It is daily as we hope for the day when He comes for us? When we either come with Him and witness His victory or be are caught up to meet Him, that is the day we await with anticipation? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I was mostly indifferent to this date prediction.

When I first heard about it I found it hard to believe that anyone was so foolish as to do a bunch of Bible math and then come out on the radio with a date.

Once I was working out in the yard listening to the daily radio Christian programs and i suddenly had to stop and listen very closely to what the radio preacher was saying.

Now I was listening to pastor Chuck Smith at the time.
Chuck Smith is not an off-the-wall type of weirdo, but rather he had a great reputation and had a good radio ministry.

But for some reason Chuck Smith also got sucked into doing Bible math and ended up with a date for the return that he announced on the radio.

I remember thinking to myself as I listened to him talk about all the support he had found for his date that - "Chuck just went off the Deep End"

Chuck Smith ended his program that day saying that unless his date was correct, he didnt have any idea how anyone else could come up with a different date...so it was his date, or the whole idea of finding a date via looking up Bible verses is pointless.

well, Chuck's date came and went....

and yet, Chuck was right about one thing, looking up Bible verses to add up to get a date is pointless......it always was...

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

No. He didn't, and he wasn't.

He was a very humble prophet of God. You just never paid any attention to anything but the devil's viewpoint.

FIG!
I call your statement a personal attack! It has been proven over and over that JS was a false prophet. It is there in black and white if you want to get into your own Church History.
President Smith then stated ... "it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, volume 2, page 182)

You totally ignore what is within your own history, why? Anyone who has any knowledge of psychology and I took many cl***es in it to become a nurse, can read JS's own history and see how he was struggling with several emotional issues. For one, delusions of grandeur. Also, he had paranoia BIG TIME! Everyone is out to get me. Well, he wasn't so wrong later in his life with that one and rightly so, with taking other men's wives and being nothing more than a womanizer. He was a very sick man whom you want to honor and sing praises to? Why do your refuse to see the truth about such a man? If this were a man of a different religion, you'd be all over him for sure.
Mormonism teaches that one should pray with a sincere heart and with real intent if these things are true....well, if one wants something bad enough, don't you think they can get a good feeling? Satan is perfect when it comes to deceiving people, its his *** and he enjoys every minute of it.
How often have we heard in the news about a murder and when this person is caught, goes to trial, not one sign of remorse....they felt justified in committing the crime. Are these thoughts from God? Here in Utah we have 2 men in our State Prison for killing their sister-in-law and baby niece. These 2 men are brothers and BOTH committed this horrible act because they admitted that it was God who told them to do it. Here is one example of how Satan can fool people into murder.
It is evident to me in the years I've studied Mormonism that JS over time became evil and corrupt. He no longer listened to God, going about doing what HE wanted. He didn't even give his poor wife, Emma a second thought and went about committing adultery over and over and then lying that he had only one wife....come on, this man was nothing more than a liar, an adulterer, tresp***er, arsonist and worst of all; traitor to this country. A wonderful man to follow.....NOT!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by biblicalchristian

Why don't you try looking again at what was said. No, Joseph Smith Jr. did not give a prophecy of the 2nd Coming. In fact, it was a blessing being given to Joseph Smith Jr. by his father. What was said was IF Joseph Smith Jr. had lived another 56 years he would see the face of the Lord again while living. It's not talking about the 2nd Coming.

You must be reading through some magic rocks.. Joseph Smith Sr was not even mentioned in this report from Jr.. Here is the whole context of that false prophecy..

President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances
attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said
God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance
yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to zion, with a
determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to
the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the
coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up
the scene. (History of the Church Vol 2, p182)

I can't believe you would be dishonest as to try to make this false prophecy into something that it is not.. Where is Joseph Smith Sr is this statement at all? This was a prophecy of the coming of Jesus 56 years should wind up the scene.. Tell you what go to the history of the Church yourself and read it.. You don't have to believe me.. I have been called a liar by members of the LDS church before and it has always turned out they they were the one wrong.. That is because before I say things like this I double check my sources.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I guess when you finally start seeing the facts you run away having no more to say.. If your church has taught you that this "prophecy" was part of a blessing the JS Sr. gave to Jr, then what else have they lied to you about? Your feelings can't help you here your only hope is to go to the Bible and see it we (the Christians of this forum) are telling the truth or not and then be obedient to God and trust ONLY in the works of Jesus for your salvation.. Put away your old idols of what The Father and Jesus are and believe what the Bible teaches.. That there is one God (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29) and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are that one true God.. That this God has been God from everlasting and will continue as the only ONLY God into everlasting.. trust in Him believing that God raise Jesus from the grave and you will be saved.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers?

Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

My answers:
On the question of there being 200 million Christians in the world right now who would be the saved, and where did he get that number?....Im guessing he may have used Google?

As for if I think that number is high or low?....I dont really know what the number of adult Christians there are in the world at any one time, my guess would be only the Lord knows such a thing.
But I also believe that all children regardless of where and when they were born are not numbered with the lost by the lord, and thus you would have to say that we are now talking Billions of souls who will be delivered at the day of the lord's 2nd Coming.

Now on the final question about what do I think the rapture will be like?.....I dont really have a clue outside what few things the bible tells us about that day.
It sounds like its going to be very loud ....and interesting...

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

"Camping's PR aide, Tom Evans, told the L.A. Times that the group is "disappointed" that 200 million true believers weren't lifted up to heaven on Sa****ay while everyone else suffered and eventually died as a series of earthquakes and famine destroyed the Earth. "You can imagine we're pretty disappointed, but the word of God is still true," Evans said. "We obviously went too far, and that's something we need to learn from." The group posted 2,000 billboards around the country warning of the rapture, while Camping--an uncertified fundamentalist minister--spread the word on his radio show."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...orld-didnt-end

And where does Camping get the idea of 200 million true believers? Is this number high, or low in your estimation?

And does this quote summarize your idea of what the Rapture will be like?

Christians consider Camping to be a false prophet, having twice falsely prophesied the Second Coming. You had better count yourself lucky, however, because when Christ does come, the enemies of the Gospel will be judged. Mormons are such enemies!

[alanmolstad]

One interesting thing of note....in other religions they also have guys who make a prediction about the end of the world , only to end up with egg on their face later.

i did not know that in the religion of Islam they have always had guys who were predicting the end of the world due to their version of "Bible Math"

Also there are many Buddhist that predict the end of the world too,

I had no clue about this but learned it on the TV news program when they did a report of "End of the World predictions.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jim what are the requirements for being a Christian? Are certain works or actions required in your opinion?

Sure a person must believe on the Lord Jesus.. Not just a person they call Jesus but the one that has always been, is, and always will be God.. IHS jim