Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

(regarding the Book of Mormon being written in the style of the Jews)

Hmm, I guess you must be right and any chiasmus or other Jewish type of writing must be just purely coincidental.

stay on topic please. this is a thread about evidence for the bom and other mormon claims. if you do not have any please do not muck up the thread with your erroneous information.

you need evidence supporting the claim that jews wrote the bom. last anyone looked smith was not a jewish name.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

the bible spoke about the hit***es and for 1800 years people thought the biblical authors made that people up. That is until they discovered the hit***e civilization.

And since the Book of Mormon has only been speaking about the nephites for 200 years, people should wait another 1600 years before opening their mouths and claiming that it is made up...right?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Sorry but unless you pony up the evidence you will not have your posts addressed.

You have made a statement that leads me to believe you do not understand what evidence is.

[DrDavidT]

we now need to ask the following question:

Why are the mormons so afraid of producing any evidence to support their claims and their faith?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

we now need to ask the following question:

Why are the mormons so afraid of producing any evidence to support their claims and their faith?

I thought I had done that with expressing my "proof" in experiencing the fruits of the spirit.

Do you want "archaeological evidence"--well, that would not support our claims of "faith"--but of our scientific studies.

That said, you still have not convinced me that even when it comes to scientific studies that you understand what is considered as evidence, methodologies, weaknesses of every study that is ever done--as no one will ever get an R^2 of 1 and why every study worth its salt leads to another study.

[Christian]

big posted:

I thought I had done that with expressing my "proof" in experiencing the fruits of the spirit.

We've seen no such 'fruits' (in the Bible the fruit of the Spirit is SINGULARLY expressed) from you.

JW's, branch davidians SAY they have the fruit of the Spirit.

We CHRISTIANS HAVE BOTH, the fruit of the Spirit AND archaeological evidence. You don't seem to REALLY have either.

Do you want "archaeological evidence"--well, that would not support our claims of "faith"--but of our scientific studies.

Since you seem to have no REAL EVIDENCE OF EITHER, you are in a mess.

That said, you still have not convinced me that even when it comes to scientific studies that you understand what is considered as evidence, methodologies, weaknesses of every study that is ever done--as no one will ever get an R^2 of 1 and why every study worth its salt leads to another study.

You do not WANT to be convinced of the TRUTH it seems. Why are you so afraid of the blatant LACK of any evidence that there was EVER any reality to joe smith's stories?
God said in HIS WORD, the BIBLE:

Heb 11:1-2
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
NKJV


​How do you reconcile THAT P***AGE with the sad LACK OF SUBSTANCE your religion has to offer?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

big posted:



We CHRISTIANS HAVE BOTH, the fruit of the Spirit AND archaeological evidence. You don't seem to REALLY have either.[/COLOR]

?[/COLOR]

Actually, you don't. You do not have any proof that any of the Bible stories are true. Show me proof of Noah's Arc or the parting of the Red Sea. Show me proof--anywhere from any other source other than the Bible that Jesus existed. What I will show you is that for any "proof" you provide, detractors will tell you that your "evidence" is biased. Just knowing a place existed is not evidence as to what happened in that place.

[teenapenny]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, you don't. You do not have any proof that any of the Bible stories are true. Show me proof of Noah's Arc or the parting of the Red Sea. Show me proof--anywhere from any other source other than the Bible that Jesus existed. What I will show you is that for any "proof" you provide, detractors will tell you that your "evidence" is biased. Just knowing a place existed is not evidence as to what happened in that place.

We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by teenapenny

We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

I know the Bible stories are true--my point is that there is no archaeological evidence that they are. But if you have it, by all means, produce it.

[DrDavidT]

But if you have it, by all means, produce it.

You are confused, this thread is about Mormons producing their evidence, not the believer. Pony up, oh and you have not produced any 'fruits of the spirit' evidence. You do not have any of the fruits of the spirit.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by teenapenny

We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

we have enough evidence from some of the stories to validate the others

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

we have enough evidence from some of the stories to validate the others

All evidence from believers that validate your beliefs. Okay, we have plenty of that if that is your litmus test for what is "evidence."

http://www.templestudy.com/2011/04/0...-metal-plates/

http://www.ancientamerica.org/librar...LA%205.htm?n=0

[DrDavidT]

The first link only shows that it is a possibility for gold plates to exist. They do nothing to prove Smith's claims as true.

The second link does so much eisegesis that it is worthless. an example:

A now-famous sculpture from ancient America is the large stone monument known as Stela 5, Izapa, which was found in about 1939 at the ruined city called Izapa in southern Mexico. On the face of this monu*ment is carved a complex religious scene, the central feature of which is a great tree with fruit on its branches --undoubtedly a representation of the symbolic tree of life of ancient American religion--and two large semi*-human figures standing (apparently in the air) facing it on either side, attending it.

Also prominent in the scene are six persons seated together on the ground--actually three on each side of the tree, and two of them on a cushion or stool--evi*dently engaged in some discussion. The principal one among them is an old, stoop-shouldered man with a long full beard (hence a white man?), seated oriental-*fashion on a cushion facing the tree, and wearing a high pointed tiara, which resembles the tiara worn by ancient Israelite high priests. His hands are out*stretched in a speaking gesture towards the tree; that is, he seems to be saying something about the tree-*the tree of life--to the other five persons seated around.

First, who said it represented the tree of life? There is no ancient verification to show that idea to be true.

Second, only 2 humans ever saw those trees so why would that picture represent the tree of life?

Third, I can't see the picture very well but the Israelites and Egyptians did not have a monopoly on their style of headdresses. We know this by existence of all the masks in the world and how unrelated and very distant groups of people had the same idea of masks and used them for similar purposes.

Fourth, what verifiable and legitimate information ties that carving to the tree of life? The old man may be telling people a different story.

Neither website provide evidence for Smith's or Mormon claims.

Okay, we have plenty of that if that is your litmus test for what is "evidence."

I provided an example of what real evidence is and so far you have failed to provide any. You did prove a possibility but that is it. There is nothing to say that the golden plates exist or that they spoke on some ancient true religious belief.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The first link only shows that it is a possibility for gold plates to exist. They do nothing to prove Smith's claims as true.

The second link does so much eisegesis that it is worthless. an example:



First, who said it represented the tree of life? There is no ancient verification to show that idea to be true.

Second, only 2 humans ever saw those trees so why would that picture represent the tree of life?

Third, I can't see the picture very well but the Israelites and Egyptians did not have a monopoly on their style of headdresses. We know this by existence of all the masks in the world and how unrelated and very distant groups of people had the same idea of masks and used them for similar purposes.

Fourth, what verifiable and legitimate information ties that carving to the tree of life? The old man may be telling people a different story.

Neither website provide evidence for Smith's or Mormon claims.



I provided an example of what real evidence is and so far you have failed to provide any. You did prove a possibility but that is it. There is nothing to say that the golden plates exist or that they spoke on some ancient true religious belief.

Which is exactly how I predicted you would react. You will find your detractors as well.

But any reader here can go to the site and see if there is evidence that gold plates existed even before people of Joseph Smith's time knew about them as well as look at the the other site to see the actual stone.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

And you should be able to SUBSTANTIATE that the stone tablets ever existed in REAL life with HONEST EVIDENCE.

And YOU should be able to come up with joe smith's pants. I doubt if you can.

So you are UNABLE to support your blind religious faith with any SUBSTANCE OR REALITY. . .We see.

Joe smith claimed the Bible is the Word of God, so joseph smith must have accepted that those stone tablets. . .why can't you believe your own 'prophet?' Or do you simply have a smorgasbord religion, picking out only what you WANT to believe of what your own 'prophet' believed and ignoring the rest?

Please ANSWER THE OP HONESTLY. I don't believe you can.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

And YOU should be able to come up with joe smith's pants. I doubt if you can.

So you are UNABLE to support your blind religious faith with any SUBSTANCE OR REALITY. . .We see.

Joe smith claimed the Bible is the Word of God, so joseph smith must have accepted that those stone tablets. . .why can't you believe your own 'prophet?' Or do you simply have a smorgasbord religion, picking out only what you WANT to believe of what your own 'prophet' believed and ignoring the rest?

Please ANSWER THE OP HONESTLY. I don't believe you can.

The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

[DrDavidT]

But any reader here can go to the site and see if there is evidence that gold plates existed even before people of Joseph Smith's time knew about them as well as look at the the other site to see the actual stone.

You still do not get it do you? Yes you have shown that there are ancient inscriptions written on metal but guess what... Not one is tied to the supposed golden plates. At least one is tied to the Bible so we have evidence for the historicity of God's word but nothing for the Mormon gold plates, the BOM or any other extra-biblical mormon scriptures.

You still have no evidence supporting one thing smith claimed.

Stealing evidence from other works i snot providing evidence for your own.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

Only because the area you are speaking about was preserved unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas. Yet, even you must admit, non-believers will find arguments against these and the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories. Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal (even before this was common understanding 200 years ago) and that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life. I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

Only because the area you are speaking about was preserved unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas. Yet, even you must admit, non-believers will find arguments against these and the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories. Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal (even before this was common understanding 200 years ago) and that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life. I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

And when did faith rely on "evidence" such as this? If faith the belief in things "NOT SEEN"?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Only because the area you are speaking about was preserved unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas. Yet, even you must admit, non-believers will find arguments against these and the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories. Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal (even before this was common understanding 200 years ago) and that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life. I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas.

what destruction?

the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories.

we have evidence-- jericho, the flood, the conquest. we also have the pool of siloam and many other NT places

Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal

showing other people's evidence is not evidence for your golden tablets. showing inscriptions on metal only mans your golden tablets are a possibility but does nothing to prove your tablets are real.

that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life.

you cannot tie that stone to lehi. you can't even demonstrate that it is talking about the tree of life

I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

you do not understand what the term hypocrisy means.

[DrDavidT]

And when did faith rely on "evidence" such as this? If faith the belief in things "NOT SEEN"?

you have faith in your stories but that doesn't make them true.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

what destruction?

Read up on what the Spaniards did when they entered the New World.

we have evidence-- jericho, the flood, the conquest. we also have the pool of siloam and many other NT places

The flood--I have heard scientists argue that there is no such evidence in our geology. I believe in the flood--but then we should see an it is our geological layer.

Places? That's it? You just want a place and if I can show you a place, then you will agree that it is true?

showing other people's evidence is not evidence for your golden tablets. showing inscriptions on metal only mans your golden tablets are a possibility but does nothing to prove your tablets are real.

nope, but it does prove that this was not known at the time of Joseph Smith.

you cannot tie that stone to lehi. you can't even demonstrate that it is talking about the tree of life

Nor can your prove that the stories are true in the Bible. Circumstantial evidence is just that. But once again--you seem to think faith relies on this type of proof--when it does not.


But here is Biblical Proof:

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

So---was this promise kept or not? Did Isaac's family spread to the west?

you do not understand what the term hypocrisy means.

Once again--your only argument is to put me down.

[DrDavidT]

Read up on what the Spaniards did when they entered the New World.

uhm,,, that is a poor argument for you have no evidence that the Spaniards or even the ancient people of South and Central America destroyed or had records supporting Smith.

You are using this as an argument because it is convenient not factual.

The flood--I have heard scientists argue that there is no such evidence in our geology. I believe in the flood--but then we should see an it is our geological layer.

Evidence is not limited to geology. Then, there has only been one global flood, the geologists would have no idea what to look for.

nope, but it does prove that this was not known at the time of Joseph Smith.

that means absolutely nothing. and how do you know it wasn't known at Smith's time? People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work

Nor can your prove that the stories are true in the Bible. Circumstantial evidence is just that. But once again--you seem to think faith relies on this type of proof--when it does not.

We have proven enough evidence that verifies the veracity of the Bible and they are not circumstantial.

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

That is not evidence for the BOM or Smith's claims

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

The Book of Mormon had been claiming, all alone, that some ancient civilizations wrote important things on metal. People laughed at the claim and said "If that is true, then where is the evidence? How come no metal engravings have ever been discovered?"

Then, over 100 years later, the silver scrolls were discovered.