Is Being Born-Again Irrelevant?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

Works is not the basis for salvation. Faith in Christ is the basis for salvation. You obviously are showing your lack of knowledge of the Bible--perhaps you should read more that your favorite handful of cherry picked verses.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Works is the basis for either receiving His grace to life--or ****ation. What is it about John5:28-29 we are not understanding?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Works is not the basis for salvation. Faith in Christ is the basis for salvation.

God's grace is the basis for Eternal life--and the scriptures show that God will judge every man according to his works--and that for life or ****ation. Which is the reason faith without works is dead:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


God gives His grace to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You obviously are showing your lack of knowledge of the Bible--perhaps you should read more that your favorite handful of cherry picked verses.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames

But that is just a reflection of LDS theology--that all men will be saved through the resurrection and Atonement of Jesus Christ--with the exception of the sons of perdition--into some form of glory.

But eternal life is reserved for those who follow Christ, and obey Him, as Paul explained:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is just a reflection of LDS theology--that all men will be saved through the resurrection and Atonement of Jesus Christ--with the exception of the sons of perdition--into some form of glory.

So living apart from God the Father is what you call saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

Sure those who are regenerated and are saved have God's spirit that lives within them and they are sanctified over tiime which is work of God in the life of the believer. Their life is one that is not marked with persistent willful disobedience to God. This is the evidence that they have been regenerated. Those who are not regenerated will live a life that is in persistent sin because they are not saved and do not have God's spirit within them sanctifying their life.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---But eternal life is reserved for those who follow Christ, and obey Him, as Paul explained:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure those who are regenerated and are saved have God's spirit that lives within them and they are sanctified over tiime which is work of God in the life of the believer. Their life is one that is not marked with persistent willful disobedience to God. This is the evidence that they have been regenerated. Those who are not regenerated will live a life that is in persistent sin because they are not saved and do not have God's spirit within them sanctifying their life.

How does that explanation somehow cancel the fact that Paul states those who do certain works cannot enter into life? That connects works with God's grace. How is that any different from those who will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does that explanation somehow cancel the fact that Paul states those who do certain works cannot enter into life? That connects works with God's grace.

Works are God's grace. Those who have been saved/regenerated are changed because they have been born again and have God's spirit within them. Works are a natural outflow of this and this is evidence that's person indeed has been born again.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---But eternal life is reserved for those who follow Christ, and obey Him, as Paul explained:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how works are not a consideration in God's grace unto life--and Paul name off a long list of works whereby man cannot enter into life if they refuse to repent of?

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Sure those who are regenerated and are saved have God's spirit that lives within them and they are sanctified over tiime which is work of God in the life of the believer. Their life is one that is not marked with persistent willful disobedience to God. This is the evidence that they have been regenerated. Those who are not regenerated will live a life that is in persistent sin because they are not saved and do not have God's spirit within them sanctifying their life.

dberrie---How does that explanation somehow cancel the fact that Paul states those who do certain works cannot enter into life? That connects works with God's grace. How is that any different from those who will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Works are God's grace.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--is the repentance and water baptism here something God does--or we do? Or is the remission of sins God's grace to those who repent and are baptized? Do you consider water baptism a work?

Those who have been saved/regenerated are changed because they have been born again and have God's spirit within them.

And all Early Church Fathers agree---water baptism was involved in the born again or generated process--or both.

Works are a natural outflow of this and this is evidence that's person indeed has been born again.

I agree. But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--is the repentance and water baptism here something God does--or we do?

We are the ones who turn from our old ways (repentance) and realize that we are sinners and need a Savior to save us from our sins and we place our trust in Him to save us (faith). Works--such as baptism--follow those who are saved and we are the ones who get baptized. But ultimately this is God working out His will in our lives by first regenerating us (born again) and giving us His spirit to sanctify us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?

We don't work for salvation DB. Salvation takes place when we place our faith in Christ, and we certainly don't earn grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But how does your premise somehow cancel out the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational Grace of eternal life to those who obey Him?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

We don't work for salvation DB.

The Biblical theology is not based on what do do or don't do--it's based on truth. And the truth is--the Bible has God's grace of eternal life going to those who obey Him.

Salvation takes place when we place our faith in Christ,

Could you explain how that is true--and all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--following death?

and we certainly don't earn grace.

Is this an example of earning grace?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Is this an example of earning grace?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Not at all. Why do you think that it does?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical theology is not based on what do do or don't do--it's based on truth. And the truth is--the Bible has God's grace of eternal life going to those who obey Him.

The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:

What I have said is what the Bible teaches. Are you ever going to get around to telling me what role works play in our justification/salvation according to Romans 4?

Romans 4: 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---The truth is that we are saved when we trust in Christ to save us and our works do not contribute for salvation.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--personal theology does not dictate what the scriptures teach as truth:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Billyray

What I have said is what the Bible teaches.

Again--your teaching---"works do not contribute for salvation"---is defied by the scriptures themselves:

eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--your teaching---"works do not contribute for salvation"---is defied by the scriptures themselves:

eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

They certainly are not "defied by the scriptures" rather what I have said is confirmed by the scriptures. In fact listen to what Jesus said in John 3 and John 6.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They certainly are not "defied by the scriptures" rather what I have said is confirmed by the scriptures. In fact listen to what Jesus said in John 3 and John 6.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

And are these the ones who believed in Christ?


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.




Is this a condition of belief?


Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And are these the ones who believed in Christ?

Absolutely they are those who have been converted by coming to Christ and placing their trust in him for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Is this a condition of belief?


[B]Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved. Those who are truly saved WILL persist and evidence for the doctrine of preservation of the saints.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----Is this a condition of belief?


Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is not a condition of faith but rather a result of those who are saved.

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.



Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

John 10
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Compare those who are not Jesus' sheep with those who are his sheep

John 10
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.


Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.



Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Please explain how your quotes somehow cancel out what the scriptures plainly state:


Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)


36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.





2 Peter 2:20-22--King James Version (KJV)


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray's theology: They endure to the end because they are saved.

Biblical theology---they are made partakers with Christ because they endured to the end.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 1
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.