Walter Martin and faith alone theology

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you are afraid to quote martin.....and Im not..

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im saying that you are afraid to quote martin.....and Im not..

Then you shouldn't mind engaging the questions posed:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

the first video we will go over in detail as we learn about Dr Martin's view of salvation is this one..





Please take the short amount of time that you need to watch this video, it will be what we will be talking about in my next few posts...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Please take the short amount of time that you need to watch this video, it will be what we will be talking about in my next few posts...

Thanks for the video--but it can't answer the questions I have posted to you:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Now the first thing Walter Martin teaches happens at 0:30 seconds into the video.




What he says is "First of all, Salvation isn't by Faith"!



with this first statement, Martin completely knocks down the false idea that he was a "Faith only" teacher....

[alanmolstad]

Next Walter goes after the people that think works contribute to salvation at 0:32 seconds




"It isn't by works"!

[alanmolstad]

But some people claim that we are saved by faith plus works.

Walter next totally destroys that false teaching next at 0:34

when speaking of faith and works, he says that they dont save alone "or any combination of them"


hear it for yourself

[alanmolstad]

Thus....Walter is teaching that we are not saved by Faith alone,,,or by Works alone,,,or by any adding and mixing of faith and works....


So now that we know man is not saved by faith alone, what does Walter teach as to how men are saved?

The answer comes up next-

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thus....Walter is teaching that we are not saved by Faith alone,,,or by Works alone,,,or by any adding and mixing of faith and works....

So now that we know man is not saved by faith alone,

But that is the same thing those of faith alone theology preach. They preach man is saved by God's grace--through faith alone. Not by faith alone--but through faith alone.

So--care to answer my questions?

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Now, because this topic is all about what Walter martin taught as to the question of salvation, I will center my answer on his words and use the things he taught with his very own lips....

So how is man saved according to martin?


What does the video reveal?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now, because this topic is all about what Walter martin taught as to the question of salvation, I will center my answer on his words and use the things he taught with his very own lips....

So how is man saved according to martin?

What does the video reveal?

It does not reveal the answer to these questions:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

Maybe you could reveal that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It does not reveal the answer to these questions:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

?

Im saying that you tried and failed to connect Martin to words that martin did not write.

The words you quoted were written by someone else, and you clearly did not point this out when you quoted them.


The words you quoted were themselves a quotation from a former CULT mag called THE PLAIN TRUTH, that is a production of the WORLD WIDE CHURCH OF GOD and is not and never was a church that Walter Martin was a member of, or had an position within......and you should have pointed this out when you tried to use it in your post.


Finally I'm saying that when you say the words "faith alone" you must define them....
Anyone can use the phrase "Faith Alone" and so you must go back as find out from them what they mean by the words before you can so running around like chicken Little , shouting "Faith Alone!" , "Faith Alone!" or else you just look very silly, as you do now to me.



I have told you that when many Christians use the term "Faith alone, they mean what the Bible says, that the Bible teaches we are not saved by works.

Thats what many mean when they say, "Faith alone"


They do not mean that their faith is without works, only that the teaching of the scriptures is very clear that we are not save by works, rather the Text says we are saved by Grace alone, though faith and not by works.



So faith is never alone.....yet we are saved by grace alone though faith.
If some say we are saved by grace alone though faith alone, then in defining what they mean by this we can see that mean the same thing as what the Bible teaches,

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot

and I finally suggest to anyone that wants to discuss what Walter Martin believed and taught, that they stick to the things Walter spoke himself, or wrote, and not try to twist the words of other's into this....
I will take a dim view if I catch anyone in the future thinking that can slam Dr Martin and misrepresent what he taught in such a manner.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

?

again you mix up the words "Not by" with the word "Without"


They are two different things in this context.

Please refer to - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

...

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

?

I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.

So this means that the only work is to have faith in the one that God sent into the world.

Dr Martin says that the Greek there in that verse leave no room for any other work.




This fits in with the verses that teach that if righteousness came by the law then Christ died for nothing!
This fits with the teaching that even after keeping all the law the man's whole life, he still was judged as lacking.
So this brings us back to the Christian Theology on how men are saved. We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
this does not mean our faith is without works, for we are saved to bring forth good works. But it does teach that we are not saved via works.

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot for more info

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.

That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
One by faith
One by works.


The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
One by faith
One by works.

The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times

How does any of that differentiate Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

define your terms on this and you will see that in most cases, you have mixed up your use of terms

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...out-works-quot for more information on the difference between saying you are saved by grace though faith alone and "Not by works", and with a faith "without works",

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Maybe you could reveal that?

I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.



I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".



I can start a topic where I show people that the words "Not by works" should not be mixed up with the words "without works".



I can warn people that if they want to post comments on a Walter Martin-named forum, that they better correctly identify what Walter Martin did write and what he did not
write.


I can try very hard to make all my posted comments very clear and easy to understand....




But in the end, I still just leading a horse to the water........

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.

You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".

"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.



"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"


thats the answer

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"

thats the answer

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I have correctly posted what Walter Martin taught because I have posted recordings where you can learn for yourself what he taught.

as far as anyone else and how that compares?..I dont know or I dont care.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I defined the term here:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

How did Walter Martin's theology differ from that?

[alanmolstad]

Listen to the recordings I have posted!

Hear what Walter taught for yourself.

why ask me when I gave you the link to his teaching?


Walter Martin says very clearly we are not saved by faith....not saved by works...and not saved by any combination of them.

Walter Martin has very clearly said we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


so anyone that teaches that we are saved by faith is?....... is in error, or is making use of poorly chosen wording.

What I have found is a lot of people say we are saved by faith alone, but then when you talk to them they turn out to mean saved by grace though faith and not by works anyway...so no big deal.