Intermediate State/Purgatory

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings.

Please, please , please...
Appeal to, and show me the Scriptures.

Blessings...Dmarie

See points 1 and 2 as far as Scripture used in my post #21.

3) A) Sin has two consequences and B) good works only have one consequence.

Romans 6.23, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This verse applies to the spiritual state as it is contrasted to the gift of God.



I'll edit later as I list other scriptures as they apply to my points. I have GMAT study and wife is calling me now.

3Ai--Sin seperates us spiritually from God by virtue of God's holiness.
3Aii--Sin's temporal consequences are felt by others and builds bad character traits.
3Bi--The temporal (positive) consequences of good works is that it builds character and connects us one to another.
3Bii--Good works is not salvaic. Only Christ's sacrifice at Calvary repairs the spiritual relationship to unify us back to God.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

See points 1 and 2 as far as Scripture used in my post #21.

3) A) Sin has two consequences and B) good works only have one consequence.

Romans 6.23, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This verse applies to the spiritual state as it is contrasted to the gift of God.



I'll edit later as I list other scriptures as they apply to my points. I have GMAT study and wife is calling me now.

3Ai--Sin seperates us spiritually from God by virtue of God's holiness.
3Aii--Sin's temporal consequences are felt by others and builds bad character traits.
3Bi--The temporal (positive) consequences of good works is that it builds character and connects us one to another.
3Bii--Good works is not salvaic. Only Christ's sacrifice at Calvary repairs the spiritual relationship to unify us back to God.

Greetings & Blessings.

C., I have already addressed these.
Yes, God is light and He has revealed this light to us in and through His Son.

There are those who either refuse or accept this light, which is Christ.
Those who refuse, will receive "the wages of sin which is death." Those who accept, will receive "the gift of God...," which "is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So we either accept this light and live to Christ..."For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord...." (Eph.5:8)...or, we reject this light and reap "the wages of sin which is death."
You focus on the first part "the wages of sin is death" which does initially apply to us all, however, if we come to the light and accept this light (Christ), we are no longer under this condemnation. We are Christ's. The second part of this verse applies to believers-those in Christ...it speaks of a "gift", and a promise to us..."but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom.6:23)

Again, if we are Christ's, we live and die to Him. When we die, we immediately go to be with Him...where He is. "...whether we wake (we are alive to) or sleep, (we die to) we should live together with Him." (IThes.5:10) "We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (2Cor.5:8)

So, being Christ's we are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritence...." (Eph.1:13,14)

***Now, why would God subject one who is His, and is indwelt and sealed with His Holy Spirit to "suffer" apart from Him "somewhere" and in some "state"? Are we not one with Christ? Is Christ divided?***

"For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lords." (Rom.14:8)

"For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's." (Rom.14:7,8)

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Sorry, I had meant to add more verses to show point #3. I was thinking there were some O.T. p***ages that would be useful, and demonstrated by one p***age in the Gospel where the sins of the father were placed on the son, while at the same time the father's own sins are not the responsibility of the sons. The Gospel p***age that I was thinking about was one where there was a question prior to a healing, where the apostles initially thought the person's condition was the result of the parents sins. In some respects, there is a higher risk of inherited deceases and disorders from such sins as fornication (I am here thinking in modern times how babies are born with AIDS due to the parent's infidelity), drug abuse, and even incest. While these are physical attributes that are imparted through genetics, the sins of the father also generate certain impressional behaviors on the children. Hence, some people are more likely to be abusers if they were once abused, or an alcoholic if their parents were alcoholics. These verses would have shown the more temporal aspects of sin's impact on our lives.

You have a question in your last post, "***Now, why would God subject one who is His, and is indwelt and sealed with His Holy Spirit to "suffer" apart from Him "somewhere" and in some "state"? Are we not one with Christ? Is Christ divided?***

I don't really understand your question to me, because you presume my position is that "they" are apart from God. I have never suggested there is any seperation apart from God. I am actually unsure as to the nature of the supposed "suffering." Is it really suffering or is it merely a removal and loss of some bad character traits that are in the soul? To me, it could be called suffering of a sort, but I think the implied connotations you have regarding what some may consider "suffering" is not sufficient in the actual purpose of purging. Does a vine cry when it is pruned? If you lived and loved long hair all our life, does a hair cut cons***ute suffering? To tell you the truth, I don't rightly know the extact extent of this "suffering" or even if it should be called that. Personally, I don't think there is suffering; it is more like how one feels in the middle of a bath removing the dirt of the soul. I am not sure there is much for us to really disagree about. There has been nothing in your comments that I have disagreed with, excepting where you try to imply something I believe that I don't.

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

Sorry, I had meant to add more verses to show point #3. I was thinking there were some O.T. p***ages that would be useful, and demonstrated by one p***age in the Gospel where the sins of the father were placed on the son, while at the same time the father's own sins are not the responsibility of the sons. The Gospel p***age that I was thinking about was one where there was a question prior to a healing, where the apostles initially thought the person's condition was the result of the parents sins. In some respects, there is a higher risk of inherited deceases and disorders from such sins as fornication (I am here thinking in modern times how babies are born with AIDS due to the parent's infidelity), drug abuse, and even incest. While these are physical attributes that are imparted through genetics, the sins of the father also generate certain impressional behaviors on the children. Hence, some people are more likely to be abusers if they were once abused, or an alcoholic if their parents were alcoholics. These verses would have shown the more temporal aspects of sin's impact on our lives.

You have a question in your last post, "***Now, why would God subject one who is His, and is indwelt and sealed with His Holy Spirit to "suffer" apart from Him "somewhere" and in some "state"? Are we not one with Christ? Is Christ divided?***

I don't really understand your question to me, because you presume my position is that "they" are apart from God. I have never suggested there is any seperation apart from God. I am actually unsure as to the nature of the supposed "suffering." Is it really suffering or is it merely a removal and loss of some bad character traits that are in the soul? To me, it could be called suffering of a sort, but I think the implied connotations you have regarding what some may consider "suffering" is not sufficient in the actual purpose of purging. Does a vine cry when it is pruned? If you lived and loved long hair all our life, does a hair cut cons***ute suffering? To tell you the truth, I don't rightly know the extact extent of this "suffering" or even if it should be called that. Personally, I don't think there is suffering; it is more like how one feels in the middle of a bath removing the dirt of the soul. I am not sure there is much for us to really disagree about. There has been nothing in your comments that I have disagreed with, excepting where you try to imply something I believe that I don't.

Hi Columcille & Blessings.

You say you believe in the concept of the Intermediate State. I refer back to a previous statement of yours where you speak of the soul with it remaining "impurities" needing further purging..."must be purged by the fire of God's light." Does this not speak of a purification process which is painful?

Blessings...Dmarie

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Hi Columcille & Blessings.

You say you believe in the concept of the Intermediate State. I refer back to a previous statement of yours where you speak of the soul with it remaining "impurities" needing further purging..."must be purged by the fire of God's light." Does this not speak of a purification process which is painful?

Blessings...Dmarie

I meant to say a further purification process.... This is what you strongly implied by your previous statement when you refer to remaining impurities.

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

To me the question of purification must be within the whole being of a person. If you believe that the person's make-up is made of flesh, soul, and spirit, then death purifies the flesh and the spirit is regenerated within this life. However, the soul is a most interesting conception. At what point and conditions is the soul purified?

There are some who believe it is only flesh and soul, believing the soul and spirit are interchangeable terms. For me, the ****ogy of the temple of God having three seperate places with its outer court, inner court, and holy of holies seems to me to reflect the one temple with the union of three courts. I believe the spirit of a mankind resides in the soul; where God resides within the spirit of that man's soul so that the sacrifice of Christ purifies the man to enter into God's kingdom upon death. However, while we are regenerated, even Paul states in Romans that he does what he hates to do. Many of us still sin even after regeneration, but the whole dynamic has changed upon regeneration; no longer are we blaming our sinful behavior on others, like Adam to Eve or Eve to the Serpent: no longer are we saying our sinful behavior is due to a disorder... No. We admit our sinfulness before God, we know as David says that "A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit. A broken and humbled heart God will not despise" (Psalm 50.19 SAAS; Psalm 51.19).

The question therefore is the soul and the flesh of the same substance? So that the purging of the soul happens at death? Or is it something else? All I know is that God is holy, and if our whole being is be present before him, it also must be made holy by God at some point. What seems exceptional to me is that the resurrection of our bodies is God pouring himself from the holy of holies outward; first he regenerates our spirits while in our mortal state, then upon death he purifies the soul by his presence, then upon the day of resurrection our bodies join with our souls and our innermost spirit. Instead of us approaching the holy of holies like the approaching in the O.T., God is coming out to us. What an amazing mystery.


As far as your question regarding suffering, I do not rightly know the nature of the suffering, if it is suffering at all. I think the ****ogy of purification suggests a type of suffering in many people's minds; but as an Eastern Catholic, it is not within my tradition to describe how that process is felt. The nature of the purification is something none of will know until after death of the body.

[Columcille]

Ok, I should be able to focus some attention to the topic for a short time. I think I p***ed my GMAT today, but will see the total combined score in twenty days. School starts Monday with two cl***es, one undergraduate and one graduate courses. So depending on the intensity of the cl***work and reading, I might not be able to put in a greater amount of effort as I would normally like to devote.

Dmarie, in regards to the purification of the soul, the scripture verses I use are found in 2 Maccabbees 12.38-45, 1 Cor. 3.9-17. The reason I use 2 Maccabbees 12.38-45 is simply as a means to show that prayer for the dead is understood in the p***age to be effective. I know that you do not accept any of the so-called "Deutorocanonicals," so please understand that I am not presenting this scripture as authoritative for you to accept. Rather this scripture is used to support my own position. I am anticipating your response and so hope you understand that I am not here to "prove" to you, but to rather "defend" (demonstrate my own defense) my beliefs in certain aspects related to the intermediate state between death and resurrection. As such, if you were trying to disprove to me that the intermediate state of souls is not being purified and that prayers offered to the souls departed is ineffecient, you would especially have a hard time in the second due to not accepting 2 Maccabbees as part of Scripture.

[Dmarie]

Greetings my friends.

I have not been well, but I am hoping to be back soon.
I still have much to say to the two of you...so, be ready for me!
Please keep me and my son in your prayers.

Many blessings...Dmarie

[alanmolstad]

Purgatory is not a Bible-backed teaching.
The idea is from extra books that the church does not hold as being at the same level as the Bible.

The need for Purgatory is because we simply dont have all the answers to all the questions we might want to ask, and so over time a few people have invented answers that they needed...

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Purgatory is not a Bible-backed teaching.
The idea is from extra books that the church does not hold as being at the same level as the Bible.

The need for Purgatory is because we simply dont have all the answers to all the questions we might want to ask, and so over time a few people have invented answers that they needed...

The main sticking points is a problem of at what point is the soul purified and how. It is obvious that regeneration within the spirit has taken place at conversion, it is also obvious that the cessation of fleshly temptations is ultimately purified by the death of the flesh. I think this purification comes on the day of the Lord that each person confronts just after death when the spirit goes back to God. I don't really believe it is a place, but a state of being within God's most holy presence. In fact, God is soo holy that nobody can see him and live. This last statement reflects the fears of the Jews to have Moses mediate for them; even Moses who did not see God in his full glory was radiating and had to cover his face due to its brilliance. Our spirits, as being in Christ, will embrace God's divine light with all its purity; but do you really think the soul's sinfulness stems from the fleshly cravings or do you think the soul's sinfulness stems from pride, dispair, and bitterness and distrust---in essence, the an***hesis of the three greatest things that St. Paul states in 1 Cor. 13 with hope, faith, and love.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Dmarie

Greetings my friends.

I have not been well, but I am hoping to be back soon.
I still have much to say to the two of you...so, be ready for me!
Please keep me and my son in your prayers.

Many blessings...Dmarie

I hope what you have to say will help me see where along my original post points may error. I have an idea in my mind that you will avoid the points as you currently do in favor of finding things within the Latin Rite to draw comparisons. There are comparisons to be made, but it is in a semantical viewpoint; the language used by the Latin Rite is not the same or in the same perception as the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox Churches. Until the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective is addressed accurately, I do not see any form of argumentation to be worth consideration. The main point that has persuaded me is in terms of the purification of the whole Christian person--the spirit, the flesh, and the soul. The spirit resides in the soul, and the soul has cognition, and the flesh is controled by this union of spirit and soul by the grace of God. At what times and in what manner does each of these parts of humankind's make-up purified? My answers were already given, the spirit upon regeneration (as outlined by John 3) in conversion, the flesh at death--but most importantly at the bodily resurrection, and the soul immediately when in the presence of God upon death. If the soul was purified in this life, then there is no possibility for sin by the Christian. If the soul is purified by the death of the flesh, then the soul is itself flesh due to cognition only being tied to the body. However, I don't believe you would ***ume that as a correct position. How you would reconcile the purification of the soul, which is not of a corruptable nature (meaning it does not cease to exist after death--even those destined to hell are cognitive of their sufferings and therefore alive in a real sense though metaphorically speaking this is their second death; because death is considered by human ****ogy to be the most intense suffering in this life. How you reconcile soul's purification is what I would like to know.

[alanmolstad]

Revelation 21:4

God changes things, changes us...helps us..fixes us.

We dont make ourselves better or more worthy of heaven...
God is at work in us....

He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has p***ed away."

the limitations we suffer now because we are yet mortal are taken away.
We will know even as we are known,,,and we will be known for sure.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Revelation 21:4

God changes things, changes us...helps us..fixes us.

We dont make ourselves better or more worthy of heaven...
God is at work in us....

He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has p***ed away."

the limitations we suffer now because we are yet mortal are taken away.
We will know even as we are known,,,and we will be known for sure.

there is no doubt that God changes things and changes us. However, what we are talking about is how and when parts of a person is purified (the flesh, the spirit, and the soul). As an Eastern Catholic, I am well aware of my own sinfulness as Psalms 50(51) is a text that we commonly recite. To me, I have never read works of Christian mystics like Thomas Kempis' "Imitation of Christ" or St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" or "Ascent to Mt. Carmel" as having any hint of working our way to heaven on our own steam; much less in Eastern Orthodoxy with such writings as the "Way of the Pilgrim" by a Russian pauper, St. John Climacus' "Ladder of Divine Ascent," nor the writings of numerous saints collected in the "Philokalia."

[Dmarie]

Originally Posted by Columcille

I hope what you have to say will help me see where along my original post points may error. I have an idea in my mind that you will avoid the points as you currently do in favor of finding things within the Latin Rite to draw comparisons. There are comparisons to be made, but it is in a semantical viewpoint; the language used by the Latin Rite is not the same or in the same perception as the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox Churches. Until the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective is addressed accurately, I do not see any form of argumentation to be worth consideration. The main point that has persuaded me is in terms of the purification of the whole Christian person--the spirit, the flesh, and the soul. The spirit resides in the soul, and the soul has cognition, and the flesh is controled by this union of spirit and soul by the grace of God. At what times and in what manner does each of these parts of humankind's make-up purified? My answers were already given, the spirit upon regeneration (as outlined by John 3) in conversion, the flesh at death--but most importantly at the bodily resurrection, and the soul immediately when in the presence of God upon death. If the soul was purified in this life, then there is no possibility for sin by the Christian. If the soul is purified by the death of the flesh, then the soul is itself flesh due to cognition only being tied to the body. However, I don't believe you would ***ume that as a correct position. How you would reconcile the purification of the soul, which is not of a corruptable nature (meaning it does not cease to exist after death--even those destined to hell are cognitive of their sufferings and therefore alive in a real sense though metaphorically speaking this is their second death; because death is considered by human ****ogy to be the most intense suffering in this life. How you reconcile soul's purification is what I would like to know.

Greetings.

Avoid your points?
C., again and again, I have already addressed all of your points. Please, do not misunderstand me in regards to how I address your points. Yes, I come from a "Western" background and knowledge, and I am aware that some of the "semantics" that I use may reflect this, but to be clear, I am no longer joined to this, "perspective" or "viewpoint.", nor do I accept it. "For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?" Being that this is a Catholic forum, I may adjust my wordology, only for discussion and understanding, but never to compormise what I know to be the clear teaching of Scripture, and it is on the Scriptures that I base my responses on.

As for the "soul's" purification...1Thes.5:23,24

Do you think God is not able to sanctify totally and completely?
Why would He save one part, then another part, and another?
Is His sacrifice not able to save the whole?

Blessings...Dmarie

[Columcille]

Imputing righteousness is something done on the spirit of the person, because if imputation happened on the soul, then we could not sin in this mortal life due to the purity of Christ transforming us. However, we know that while in this mortal life we still sin. Hence, imputing righteousness does not happen on the soul, but rather on the spirit of the person through conversion (regeneration).

Again Dmarie, you try to touch on it, but confuse the when and how the soul of a person is purifed. Seems you got the spirit of the person's point of righteousness imputed by God, but do not really address the soul.

[Dmarie]

Greetings.

C., again you are trying to tie "points" of Truth to prove and support a "concept" aka, Intermediate State. You have not. For that matter, anyone could use these same points in a deceptive and twisting way to start, prove and support just about any concept or teaching they want.
God specifically warns us not to add nor take away from His Words. (Rev.22:18,19)

What a fearful thing.

Blessings...Dmarie