Quick question

[Libby]

Also, worth mentioning, is that even the textual "mistakes" from the KJV are also in the Book of Mormon. How in the world did mistakes made in the 1600's show up in writings that are supposedly more than 2000 years old?

There are multiple problems with the Book of Mormon, that should all raise red flags.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Also, worth mentioning, is that even the textual "mistakes" from the KJV are also in the Book of Mormon. How in the world did mistakes made in the 1600's show up in writings that are supposedly more than 2000 years old?

There are multiple problems with the Book of Mormon, that should all raise red flags.

Another interesting issue is why are there changes in Isaiah in the JST when comparing them to the chapters of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? LDS claim that the scriptures were pure up to the time of the Apostles and were corrupted after this point. The source for the Isaiah p***ages in the Book of Mormon predate the Apostles by at least 600 years so this copy should be pure. Which brings up another issue--if the source for the Isaiah p***ages in the Book of Mormon is pure then it should be different than what we have in the KJV.

[Libby]

Yes, exactly.

Many big problems with accepting the BofM as an ancient text.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Joseph plagiarized many different authors from the Bible alone--each having a different writing style.

Can you name these "many different Bible authors" you are talking about?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Can you name these "many different Bible authors" you are talking about?

Isaiah, Paul, and short phrases from multiple NT authors.

[Billyray]

Here is an example of a single chapter in the Book of Mormon of short phrases that have been lifted from the KJV Bible. This is found in chapter after chapter of the Book of Mormon. This would certainly explain different writing styles because small phrases have been taken from multiple authors.

Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 48-49

1 Nephi 10

KJV: Saviour of the world (John 4:42)
BM: Savior of the world (1 Nephi 10:4)

KJV: crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3)
BM: cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: there standeth one among you, whom ye know not (John 1:26)
BM: there standeth one among you whom ye know not (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: mightier than I (Luke 3:16)
BM: mightier than I (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose (John 1:27)
BM: whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: in Bethabara, beyond Jordan (John 1:28)
BM: in Bethabara, beyond Jordan (1 Nephi 10:9)

KJV: baptize with water (John 1:26)
BM: baptize with water (1 Nephi 10:9)

KJV: the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world (1 Nephi 10:10)

KJV: he must rise again from the dead (John 20:9)
BM: he should rise from the dead (1 Nephi 10:11)

KJV: the Holy Ghost (Matt. 1:18)
BM: the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:11)

KJV: the word of the Lord, that we (1 Thess. 4:15)
BM: the word of the Lord, that we (1 Nephi 10:13)

KJV: the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree (Rom. 11:24)
BM: the natural branches of the olive tree . . . should be grafted in (1 Nephi 10:14)

KJV: the power of the Holy Ghost (Rom. 15:13)
BM: the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20)
BM: faith on the Son of God (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: them that diligently seek him (Heb. 11:6)
BM: those who diligently seek him (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8)
BM: the same yesterday, to day, and forever (1 Nephi 10:18)

KJV: prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matt. 25:34)
BM: prepared for all men from the foundation of the world (1 Nephi 10:18)

KJV: the power of the Holy Ghost (Rom. 15:13)
BM: the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:19)

[Billyray]

Here is an example from from a different book in the Book of Mormon--Alma 5. BTW this is an excellent book put out by Sandra Tanner and she has it in digital format--PDF--so you can put it on your computer or iPad and search any word and it finds it for you in a matter of seconds.
Here is the link for anyone interested.
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digitalbooks.htm


Note--when looking at these two examples this is typical of chapter after chapter in the Book of Mormon--theses are not isolated chapters that I am showing you.

Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 83-85


Alma 5

KJV: power and authority (Luke 9:1)
BM: power and authority (Alma 5:3)

KJV: yea, I say unto you (Matt. 11:9)
BM: yea, I say unto you (Alma 5:5)

KJV: in remembrance that (2 Tim. 1:6)
BM: in remembrance that (Alma 5:6)

KJV: were illuminated (Heb. 10:32)
BM: were illuminated (Alma 5:7)

KJV: everlasting destruction (2 Thess. 1:9)
BM: everlasting destruction (Alma 5:7)

KJV: And I say unto you that (Matt. 8:11)
BM: And I say unto you that (Alma 5:9)

KJV: he preached the word unto (Mark 2:2)
BM: he preached the word unto (Alma 5:13)

KJV: born of God (1 John 3:9)
BM: born of God (Alma 5:14)

KJV: raised in incorruption (1 Cor. 15:42)
BM: raised in incorruption (Alma 5:15)

KJV: stand before God (Rev. 20:12)
BM: stand before God (Alma 5:15)

KJV: be judged according to (1 Peter 4:6)
BM: be judged according to (Alma 5:15)

KJV: mortal body (Rom. 6:12)
BM: mortal body (Alma 5:15)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:16)

KJV: with a pure heart (1 Peter 1:22)
BM: with a pure heart (Alma 5:19)

KJV: to the devil (Eph. 4:27)
BM: to the devil (Alma 5:20)

KJV: ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:31)
BM: ye cannot be saved (Alma 5:21)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:21)

KJV: guilty of all (James 2:10)
BM: guilty of all (Alma 5:23)

KJV: sit down in the kingdom of God (Luke 13:29)
BM: sit down in the kingdom of God (Alma 5:24)

KJV: pure and white (Rev. 15:6)
BM: pure and white (Alma 5:24)

KJV: he is a liar (John 8:44)
BM: he is a liar (Alma 5:25)

KJV: in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:4)
BM: in the kingdom of heaven (Alma 5:25)

KJV: the children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:12)
BM: the children of the kingdom (Alma 5:25)

KJV: sing the song of (Rev. 15:3)
BM: sing the song of (Alma 5:26)

KJV: through the blood of (Col. 1:20)
BM: through the blood of (Alma 5:27)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:27)

KJV: for the kingdom of heaven is (Matt. 3:2)
BM: for the kingdom of heaven is (Alma 5:28)

KJV: one among you (John 1:26)
BM: one among you (Alma 5:29)

KJV: for the hour is (John 5:28)
BM: for the hour is (Alma 5:29)

KJV: the time shall come (John 16:4)
BM: the time shall come (Alma 5:29)

KJV: And again I say unto you (Matt. 19:24)
BM: And again I say unto you (Alma 5:30)

KJV: and I will receive you (2 Cor. 6:17)
BM: and I will receive you (Alma 5:33)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:35)

KJV: hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matt. 3:10)
BM: hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:35)

KJV: are puffed up (1 Cor. 5:2)
BM: are puffed up (Alma 5:37)

KJV: things of the world (1 Cor. 1:27)
BM: things of the world (Alma 5:37)

KJV: as sheep having no shepherd (Matt. 9:36)
BM: as sheep having no shepherd (Alma 5:37)

KJV: the good shepherd (John 10:11)
BM: the good shepherd (Alma 5:38)

KJV: in his own name (John 5:43)
BM: in his own name (Alma 5:38)

KJV: the name of Christ (1 Peter 4:14)
BM: the name of Christ (Alma 5:38)

KJV: Whosoever denieth (1 John 2:23)
BM: whosoever denieth (Alma 5:39)

KJV: child of the devil (Acts 13:10)
BM: child of the devil (Alma 5:39)

KJV: cometh from God (John 5:44)
BM: cometh from God (Alma 5:40)

KJV: bringeth forth good (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth good (Alma 5:41)

KJV: bringeth forth evil (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth evil (Alma 5:41)

KJV: unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:17)
BM: unto all good works (Alma 5:42)

KJV: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:39)
BM: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Alma 5:44)

KJV: testify unto you (Rev. 22:16)
BM: testify unto you (Alma 5:45)

KJV: the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)
BM: the Holy Spirit of God (Alma 5:46)

KJV: written in the book of life (Rev. 13:8)
BM: written in the book of life (Alma 5:58)

KJV: will I grant (Rev. 3:21)
BM: will I grant (Alma 5:58)

KJV: For the word of God (Heb. 4:12)
BM: for the word of God (Alma 5:58)

KJV: of him who hath (Rom. 8:20)
BM: of him who hath (Alma 5:61)

[Libby]

Thanks for the link, Billy!

From "Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon"

While we believed that God could give the same
concepts to two different groups of people, we still
struggled with the idea that both texts would use almost
exactly the same words. It would be nearly impossible
for two different translators to independently come up
with the same English wording even if they worked from
the same text. The problem with the Book of Mormon
is much more complex. The Bible was translated from
both Hebrew and Greek m****cripts, and the Book
of Mormon was supposed to have been translated
from “reformed Egyptian.” That the words from the
“reformed Egyptian” language would come out so close
to those translated from the Hebrew and Greek language
seemed almost impossible to explain. This problem
and many others of a similar nature led us into a very
exhaustive study of the Book of Mormon.


When we began our research, we sincerely wanted
to prove it true and to silence the critics. The Book of
Mormon itself admonished us to “ask God, the Eternal
Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;
and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent,
having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it
unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Moroni
10:4). We, therefore, spent a great deal of time praying
for God’s direction in the matter, but he did not “manifest
the truth of it” to us. In fact, the more we looked into the
matter, the more evidence we found against the book’s
authenticity. God seemed to be telling us something we
did not want to hear, and we found it extremely painful
to face the facts which we encountered. As it turned
out, however, we found a peace and joy in biblical
Christianity that is far greater than anything we sacrificed
in giving up the Book of Mormon.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

From "Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon"

While we believed that God could give the same
concepts to two different groups of people, we still
struggled with the idea that both texts would use almost
exactly the same words. It would be nearly impossible
for two different translators to independently come up
with the same English wording even if they worked from
the same text.

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.

There are lots of p***ages that are quoted from the OT. This is something entirely different than what we are talking about here

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.

Yeah, I have to agree with Billy that quoting from the O.T. and using similar wording (especially as it is translated into English) is something quite different.

The Book of Mormon was, supposedly, a whole different group of people than any of those in the Bible. You might expect the messages to be similar, but not word for word and not in KJ English, with KJV errors. The errors, especially, are very suspect, like someone simply copied the KJV Bible.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There are lots of p***ages that are quoted from the OT

But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.

And saying that it's plagiarism because it has the same mistakes as the Bible has, is admitting that the Bible has mistakes, so you may want to think twice before using that argument.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Which ones are you talking about so we can take a look at them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.*

In the examples that I gave above I wasn't even talking about the dozens of chapters of Isaiah what were taken word for word.

Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 83-85


Alma 5

KJV: power and authority (Luke 9:1)
BM: power and authority (Alma 5:3)

KJV: yea, I say unto you (Matt. 11:9)
BM: yea, I say unto you (Alma 5:5)

KJV: in remembrance that (2 Tim. 1:6)
BM: in remembrance that (Alma 5:6)

KJV: were illuminated (Heb. 10:32)
BM: were illuminated (Alma 5:7)

KJV: everlasting destruction (2 Thess. 1:9)
BM: everlasting destruction (Alma 5:7)

KJV: And I say unto you that (Matt. 8:11)
BM: And I say unto you that (Alma 5:9)

KJV: he preached the word unto (Mark 2:2)
BM: he preached the word unto (Alma 5:13)

KJV: born of God (1 John 3:9)
BM: born of God (Alma 5:14)

KJV: raised in incorruption (1 Cor. 15:42)
BM: raised in incorruption (Alma 5:15)

KJV: stand before God (Rev. 20:12)
BM: stand before God (Alma 5:15)

KJV: be judged according to (1 Peter 4:6)
BM: be judged according to (Alma 5:15)

KJV: mortal body (Rom. 6:12)
BM: mortal body (Alma 5:15)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:16)

KJV: with a pure heart (1 Peter 1:22)
BM: with a pure heart (Alma 5:19)

KJV: to the devil (Eph. 4:27)
BM: to the devil (Alma 5:20)

KJV: ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:31)
BM: ye cannot be saved (Alma 5:21)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:21)

KJV: guilty of all (James 2:10)
BM: guilty of all (Alma 5:23)

KJV: sit down in the kingdom of God (Luke 13:29)
BM: sit down in the kingdom of God (Alma 5:24)

KJV: pure and white (Rev. 15:6)
BM: pure and white (Alma 5:24)

KJV: he is a liar (John 8:44)
BM: he is a liar (Alma 5:25)

KJV: in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:4)
BM: in the kingdom of heaven (Alma 5:25)

KJV: the children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:12)
BM: the children of the kingdom (Alma 5:25)

KJV: sing the song of (Rev. 15:3)
BM: sing the song of (Alma 5:26)

KJV: through the blood of (Col. 1:20)
BM: through the blood of (Alma 5:27)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:27)

KJV: for the kingdom of heaven is (Matt. 3:2)
BM: for the kingdom of heaven is (Alma 5:28)

KJV: one among you (John 1:26)
BM: one among you (Alma 5:29)

KJV: for the hour is (John 5:28)
BM: for the hour is (Alma 5:29)

KJV: the time shall come (John 16:4)
BM: the time shall come (Alma 5:29)

KJV: And again I say unto you (Matt. 19:24)
BM: And again I say unto you (Alma 5:30)

KJV: and I will receive you (2 Cor. 6:17)
BM: and I will receive you (Alma 5:33)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:35)

KJV: hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matt. 3:10)
BM: hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:35)

KJV: are puffed up (1 Cor. 5:2)
BM: are puffed up (Alma 5:37)

KJV: things of the world (1 Cor. 1:27)
BM: things of the world (Alma 5:37)

KJV: as sheep having no shepherd (Matt. 9:36)
BM: as sheep having no shepherd (Alma 5:37)

KJV: the good shepherd (John 10:11)
BM: the good shepherd (Alma 5:38)

KJV: in his own name (John 5:43)
BM: in his own name (Alma 5:38)

KJV: the name of Christ (1 Peter 4:14)
BM: the name of Christ (Alma 5:38)

KJV: Whosoever denieth (1 John 2:23)
BM: whosoever denieth (Alma 5:39)

KJV: child of the devil (Acts 13:10)
BM: child of the devil (Alma 5:39)

KJV: cometh from God (John 5:44)
BM: cometh from God (Alma 5:40)

KJV: bringeth forth good (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth good (Alma 5:41)

KJV: bringeth forth evil (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth evil (Alma 5:41)

KJV: unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:17)
BM: unto all good works (Alma 5:42)

KJV: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:39)
BM: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Alma 5:44)

KJV: testify unto you (Rev. 22:16)
BM: testify unto you (Alma 5:45)

KJV: the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)
BM: the Holy Spirit of God (Alma 5:46)

KJV: written in the book of life (Rev. 13:8)
BM: written in the book of life (Alma 5:58)

KJV: will I grant (Rev. 3:21)
BM: will I grant (Alma 5:58)

KJV: For the word of God (Heb. 4:12)
BM: for the word of God (Alma 5:58)

KJV: of him who hath (Rom. 8:20)
BM: of him who hath (Alma 5:61)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.

And saying that it's plagiarism because it has the same mistakes as the Bible has, is admitting that the Bible has mistakes, so you may want to think twice before using that argument.

The KJV has some specific translation errors that were copied into the Book of Mormon. Now, since the KJV didn't even exist until 1611, it's highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that, whomever copied those verses, way back when, would have made those same exact errors.

Most translations have some error. When Christians talk about an inerrant Bible, they are talking about the Bible in its' original form.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

The KJV has some specific translation errors that were copied into the Book of Mormon. Now, since the KJV didn't even exist until 1611, it's highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that, whomever copied those verses, way back when, would have made those same exact errors.

Most translations have some error. When Christians talk about an inerrant Bible, they are talking about the Bible in its' original form.

is there anynoe who actually trusts the Mormon bible?...or are they simply overlooking as it seems?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

is there anynoe who actually trusts the Mormon bible?...or are they simply overlooking as it seems?

Most Mormons claim to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I thought I did for along time.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Most Mormons claim to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. .

what did you think?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what did you think?

I thought it was true. I thought it was an ancient writing.

(Is that what you mean?)

[alanmolstad]

so itwas told well to you?

[Libby]

Sorry, not sure what you mean?

[alanmolstad]

the whole Smith story.....told well to you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the whole Smith story.....told well to you?

Not really. I didn't know that much about Joseph Smith, when I first joined the church. I came in through the LDS prophet, at that time, Gordon B. Hinckley. He wrote a book called, "Standing for Something"...and I happened to catch some quotes from it on a political board I had been posting on (of all things). I really liked this book (I bought it on Amazon) and consequently liked Gordon Hinckley. That was the first phase. Shortly after I read Hinckley's book, I took a trip to Washington D.C. and stayed in a Marriott Hotel. I knew nothing of "Marriott", at the time. So, I unpack and open the drawer of the bed stand, to put my medication in there...and lo and behold, there is a Book of Mormon in there. I about fainted...not kidding! I thought it was probably a sign or a miracle of some kind....really, I did. *sigh* I put it in my suitcase and brought it home. I still have it. It's all highlighted with notes in the margins. I read it. Had what I thought was a real spiritual experience with it.

Then, the next "miracle" was that LDS missionaries showed up at my door, while I was reading the book. They had no idea...and I will never forget this one missionary, because he had chosen my house to come to and he got soooo excited when he heard I was reading the Book of Mormon. I didn't let them in, at the time, because I told them I was still reading and not really ready to talk to anyone about it, yet. They were cool with that, and I never saw them again. When I did, finally, feel ready, I asked this online friend of mine, who had quoted from Hinckley's book, how to get in touch with the missionaries. He sent them out to my house the very next day....and I was baptized about two months after that.

[Libby]

The thing about my conversion was that I was totally focused on the spiritual side of it (and having, what seemed like too many coincidences to be just "coincidence", y/k?). I knew very little of the history of the church...knew nothing of JS's polygamy, ages of the women, already married women, etc. Also didn't know much about the Book of Abraham stuff...the papyri that was not translated correctly really had a huge impact on my testimony.

[Libby]

Also, it's true that I was not very familiar with the Bible. I had been away from Christianity for years.