The tally of Biblical quotes

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit

Do you believe children commit sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe children commit sin?

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

So a baby is saved because he is perfect just like Jesus and does not need the atonement applied to him? And what about young children who sin who have not accepted Christ are they out of luck?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

The Bible teaches us in more than one place that ALL have sinned. Do you reject this Bible teaching?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If they live a sufficient amount of time, most of them end up committing sin.

Do you believe that ALL of the babies who were murdered by Kermit Gosnell committed sins before he killed them?


Billy's Answer: YES.

You still have thing upside down.. We never commit sin to become sinners, we sin because we are sinners.. It is the nature of a human being to sin.. We are therefore all sinners before a Holy God whose nature is to be righteous. So whether of not a baby has committed sin they are sinners.. It is their nature.. I have quoted Jer 17:9 to you several times.. It is our heart that evil, the very base of our being.. All people have that nature no matter their age. Therefore ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.. Not most as you wish it was.. It's ALL.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

I have already given you my position on this Jeff which is that all babies who die will go to heaven which is 100%. Christians on this forum have all agreed, yet you have gone on and on and on despite the fact that we are in agreement. I have even pointed you to my post where we discussed this subject at length saying the exact same thing but you act like you have had a bout of amnesia. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I guess you are running out of ideas.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

...all babies who die will go to heaven which is 100%. .

Yay! He finally gave a straight-up answer!

So you believe that 100% of those babies committed sins before they died...and you also believe that 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

I will discuss this more later.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yay! He finally gave a straight-up answer!

Originally Posted by Billyray

. . .My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. . .

Jeff I told you this back in April--well over two months ago. And you have either forgotten what we have discussed OR you have been purposely been misrepresenting what I believe. I believe it it the later. What purpose do you think you gain by this type of deception on your part?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you believe that 100% of those babies committed sins before they died...

Jeff do you believe that children sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

I am back to discuss Billy's belief that

100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died, and 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

First, I still feel that I should challenge the idea that 100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died.

Let's look at all the babies murdered by Dr. Gosnell, for example:

I can't think of one sin they committed, or were even ABLE to commit. So I have to question the truth of Billy's accusation against those babies.

Second, Billy claims that of all those sinner babies who died shortly before or shortly after taking their first breath, 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy. Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

I think not. The Athanasian Creed states that EVERYONE who wants to be saved MUST faithfully believe in the TRINITY with all the legalistic verbiage the Creed states about the Trinity, and it states that ANYONE who DOESN'T faithfully believe all that stuff about the Trinity CANNOT BE SAVED.

It has no fine-print disclaimer saying "Except for those who die in infancy--they get to go to heaven without meeting this requirement."

So I wonder how Billy explains the Athanasian Creed's statements as they contradict his own regarding sinners who get to go to heaven.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I am back to discuss Billy's belief that

100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died, and 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

First, I still feel that I should challenge the idea that 100% of the babies who die committed sins before they died.

Let's look at all the babies murdered by Dr. Gosnell, for example:

I can't think of one sin they committed, or were even ABLE to commit. So I have to question the truth of Billy's accusation against those babies.

Second, Billy claims that of all those sinner babies who died shortly before or shortly after taking their first breath, 100% of those babies will go to heaven.

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy. Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

I think not. The Athanasian Creed states that EVERYONE who wants to be saved MUST faithfully believe in the TRINITY with all the legalistic verbiage the Creed states about the Trinity, and it states that ANYONE who DOESN'T faithfully believe all that stuff about the Trinity CANNOT BE SAVED.

It has no fine-print disclaimer saying "Except for those who die in infancy--they get to go to heaven without meeting this requirement."

So I wonder how Billy explains the Athanasian Creed's statements as they contradict his own regarding sinners who get to go to heaven.

Billy and jim both believe that 100% of all Humans no matter how long they live are sinners.. It doesn't matter what they do it is their nature, their hearts that is desperately wicked.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

While I agree that all those babies will indeed enter God's kingdom, it's a bit strange that Billy believes it, because what he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.

Originally Posted by Billyray

. . .My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. . .

I am not sure why you believe this idea is strange since you believe the same thing i.e. that children who die will go to heaven prior to being baptized and prior to accepting Christ. Tell me Jeff do you believe that children under the age of 8 sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff do you believe that children sin?

Bump for Jeff

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure why you believe this idea is strange since you believe the same thing i.e. that children who die will go to heaven prior to being baptized and prior to accepting Christ.

I TOLD YOU why your idea is strange, but here it is AGAIN:


"he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.
Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

Did you get it this time? The Bible does not support your weird belief. That's why.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I TOLD YOU why your idea is strange, but here it is AGAIN:


"he's saying is that 100% of sinners go to heaven, as long as those sinners died in infancy.
Does the Bible support the idea that 100% of sinners go to heaven without accepting Jesus, as long as they have a valid excuse for their sins??

Did you get it this time? The Bible does not support your weird belief. That's why.

I don't just believe that infants who die will be saved but all young children who die. This is exactly what you believe--yet you say that this is weird. Again Jeff we have discussed this exact subject at length and you seem to have totally forgotten what we have discussed OR you are misrepresenting my position. I think it is the latter.

Now are you going to answer my question, do you believe that children sin and if so why do you believe that they will go to heaven because they are sinners and yet are not baptized nor have accepted Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.

No Jeff you didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

Bump for Jeff.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't just believe that infants who die will be saved but all young children who die.

That's not the weird part. The weird part is where you ALSO believe that every single one of those babies and young children COMMITTED ACTUAL SINS before they died in infancy or at a young age--and they all died without accepting Jesus.

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

And that is not a Christian belief--at least not an orthodox one.

Now are you going to answer my question, do you believe that children sin

I already answered that question. Are you getting amnesia, or are you just pretending that you don't remember?

I believe that SOME children sin, but babies who die in infancy OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT ANY SINS before they died. How COULD they have? They weren't ABLE to sin. In order to sin, you need to know that what you are doing is wrong. If the cashier gives you too much change and you don't realize it, you took money that didn't belong to you, but it's not stealing. Why is it not stealing? Figure that out and you will have made a great breakthrough in understanding what the average LDS kid knows from Primary and Sunday School.

and if so why do you believe that they will go to heaven because they are sinners and yet are not baptized nor have accepted Christ?

Since I am LDS, I have the advantage of having a doctrine that teaches that those who died without a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life, get that opportunity after they die--a doctrine which makes a lot of sense.

But you rejected that doctrine and embraced Calvinism, so you're not allowed to believe in common-sense doctrines like this one.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

How is what I believe different than what you believe with respect to children who die?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That's not the weird part. The weird part is where you ALSO believe that every single one of those babies and young children COMMITTED ACTUAL SINS before they died in infancy or at a young age--and they all died without accepting Jesus.

Now, unless you believe that those kids will get a chance to hear and accept the gospel AFTER they die, then you believe that many people who never accepted Jesus will get eternal life.

And that is not a Christian belief--at least not an orthodox one.

And which Christian on this board has disagreed with me that we all sin and that children who die go to heaven?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I believe that SOME children sin, but babies who die in infancy OBVIOUSLY DID NOT COMMIT ANY SINS before they died.

So children under 8 who sin, have not been baptized, nor have accepted Christ end up where?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

In order to sin, you need to know that what you are doing is wrong

Where did you come up with this definition Jeff?

Let me ask you a question to see if your own defintion stands up to your own scrutiny. if a young girl gets an abortion and she doesn't know that it is wrong are you saying that this is not a sin?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by billyray

how is what i believe different than what you believe with respect to children who die?

you believe they sinned while still in the womb.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where did you come up with this definition Jeff?

It's a common definition:

2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sin

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

you believe they sinned while still in the womb.

I must admit I am not female, but it seems to me that having to get up 20 times a night to go to the bathroom while said child is in the womb............

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I must admit I am not female, but it seems to me that having to get up 20 times a night to go to the bathroom while said child is in the womb............

Pretty sure that's not a sin.