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Thread: Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

  1. #26
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Why question the Holy Spirit's witness if another mortal human contradicts what He witnesses to you? There is no reason to put another man's claims on the same level as revelation from God. That'd be silly wouldn't it?

    love,
    stem
    It would be, yes, if you knew for sure that witness was from the Holy Spirit.

  2. #27
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebok View Post
    Hi Libby



    The Church of Jesus Christ teaches a "Holy Ghost first approach". If you now place your "head" first over the Holy Ghost, you missed an important epistemological lesson, namely, "reason" serves an important "ministerial" function, just not the "magisterial" one Father JD preaches.

    There are many good reasons not to follow Father JD in his prideful error which elevates reason over and is dismissive of the Holy Ghost. I think the following general points adapted from scholar William Lane Craig are worth pointing out to you:

    1) Following Father JD would deny the right of true faith to all who lack the ability, time, or opportunity to understand and ***ess the arguments and evidence. The consequences would no doubt consign untold millions of people who have faith in Christ to unbelief.
    2) If one embraces Father JD's approach, those who have been presented with more cogent intellectual arguments against Christ than for him would have an excuse before God for their unbelief.
    3) JD's view creates a sort of intellectual elite, a priesthood of philosophers and historians, who will dictate to the m***es of humanity whether or not it is rational for them to believe in the gospel. But surely faith is available to everyone why, in response to the Spirit's drawing, calls upon the name of the Lord.
    4) JD's approach subjects faith to a vagaries of reason and the shifting sands of evidence, making Christian faith rational in one generation and irrational in the next.

    I just don't understand why JD demeans the the Holy Ghost!? The Holy Ghost is our veridical evidence. JD's intellectual reason for belief which he sells here on WM is just pride.



    D&C 6: 22
    22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
    23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

    best

    s.

    I want to come back to this, Peter.

    I don't think anyone (Father JD or myself) intends to demean the Holy Spirit. And I know that neither of us believe that faith in Christ is developed entirely from "reason". But, to be reasonable, reason must play a role, otherwise, we can easily mistake error for truth, yes? The Spirit testifies of Jesus Christ. That is his main role. When it comes to other men, it seems to me that caution must be the rule, especially when following supposed prophets or people who claim to know what is truth for the whole world. People like Tony Alamo. You have a deep skepticism of him, because of things you have learned about him. How is that different from my skepticism of Joseph Smith (because of things I have learned about him)?

  3. #28
    Jude 3
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebok View Post
    the ole "stinking bag o' maggots" advised the practice. I'm not so sure he himself could have gotten any additional give his self description

    Thus spake Martin Luther of himself, in his Sincere Admonition to all Christians to Guard Against Insurrection and Rebellion (1522), in Luther's Works (English Translation), volume 45. 70.

    s.
    So you are blaming Mormon polygamy on Martin Luther who you admit did not have a bevy of wives like Smith, suggesting that the reason why he was not a polygamist was because he considered himself to be an old stinking bag of maggots? Amazing self-deprecation, if what you claim is true.

    Anything to take the focus off Joseph Smith, right?

    I'll have to admit that one does not find Joseph Smith referring to himself using self-deprecation of any type, because he considered himself to be a god and greater than everyone, including Jesus!

    "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it you must lump it." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith by Fielding, p. 363

    I am a lawyer; I am a big lawyer and comprehend heaven, earth and hell, to bring forth knowledge that shall cover up all lawyers, doctors and other big bodies." History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 289

    "Don't employ lawyers, or pay them money for their knowledge, for I have learned that they don't know anything. I know more than they all." History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 467

    "I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 78

    But no opinion of himself could beat the citation for which Smith is most famous:

    "If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them....I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, not JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." History of the Church, Vol. 6, pg. 408-409.

  4. #29
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jude 3 View Post

    I'll have to admit that one does not find Joseph Smith referring to himself using self-deprecation of any type, because he considered himself to be a god and greater than everyone, including Jesus!



    But no opinion of himself could beat the citation for which Smith is most famous:

    "If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them....I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, not JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." History of the Church, Vol. 6, pg. 408-409.
    To be fair, Joseph Smith never said he was greater than Jesus. He said he did a greater work than Jesus. Any student of the Bible will know that Jesus himself said there would be those who would come and do greater works than he did. Do you believe the Bible?

  5. #30
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    He said he did a greater work than Jesus.
    I think we should let the world to decide if Joseph Smith had done a greater work than Jesus. I am not very hot about any self-proclamation.

    John Lennon has also said something alike.

    "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me."

    Few weeks ago the Catholic Church forgave him for this remark. It was a statement from an inexperienced young man. This is why he was forgiven.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 12-04-2008 at 02:23 PM.

  6. #31
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    It would be, yes, if you knew for sure that witness was from the Holy Spirit.
    Would you suggest that you are one who says the Holy Spirit declared to you that the LDS Church is not authored by God?

    love,
    stem

  7. #32
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I think we should let the world to decide if Joseph Smith had done a greater work than Jesus. I am not very hot about any self-proclamation.

    John Lennon has also said something alike.

    "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me."

    Few weeks ago the Catholic Church forgave him for this remark. It was a statement from an inexperienced young man. This is why he was forgiven.

    Trinity
    He was forgiven by the Catholic Church because he was young? I would've thought someone would be forgiven because that is what Jesus taught us to to; forgive all men.

  8. #33
    Trinity
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    Hello Vlad III,

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    He was forgiven by the Catholic Church because he was young? I would've thought someone would be forgiven because that is what Jesus taught us to to; forgive all men.

    "The remark by John Lennon, which triggered deep indignation mainly in the United States, after many years sounds only like a 'boast' by a young working-cl*** Englishman faced with unexpected success, after growing up in the legend of Elvis and rock and roll," Vatican daily Osservatore Romano said."

    http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=30769

    Trinity

  9. #34
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Would you suggest that you are one who says the Holy Spirit declared to you that the LDS Church is not authored by God?

    love,
    stem
    To be honest, I couldn't tell you that, for certain, right now...no.

  10. #35
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    To be honest, I couldn't tell you that, for certain, right now...no.
    To be honest I think its great you admit that.

    love,
    stem

  11. #36
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    To be honest I think its great you admit that.

    love,
    stem
    To be honest, I was going through a very tough time, spiritually, when I wrote that. I was even considering going back to the LDS church. But, that would not have been right for me and I do believe the Holy Spirit was very instrumental in helping me see that.

  12. #37
    nrajeff
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    Libs, thanks for the note welcoming me back to that other place. (They won't let me remain for long, though.) I couldn't figure out how to send you a reply.

  13. #38
    Libby
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    You're welcome. I was very surprised to see you posting there again, as I thought your ban had been permanent....but pleasantly surprised. I know clay was missing you, as well.

    They don't have private messaging over there, anymore, but you can click on the person's name and leave a message that way. Anyone can read it, though.

  14. #39
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    This subject was one that was especially bothersome to me and one of the main reasons I ended up leaving the church.

    Why did Joseph have himself sealed to girls as young as 14?

    Why did he marry women that were already married?

    Why were these girls/women coerced by telling them that their families' spiritual lives depended on whether or not they married Joseph?

    Do you believe there really was a "destroying angel" that would have taken Joseph's life, if certain of these women had not married him?
    Hi Lib Lib! Fancy meeting you here. I just signed up today. (Fancy new board here at WM.org. Much better than the old one. Much better.)

    I think what you'll notice about the patriarch's polygamy is that it is a) tolerated of God and not commanded and b) mentioned as something that people did. It's merely an historical account of the actions of people; just as other things which people did such as getting divorces... out of the hardness of their heart and God tolerates that too. But for how long?

    Nothing good ever comes from polygamy. It produces God-given jealously in the hearts of the women who will naturally compete for the affection of the husband.

    It's ill and causes illness in those who practice it.

  15. #40
    Libby
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    Hiya Russ.

    I agree. I don't believe God ever "commanded" or even condoned polygamy (what an awful ins***ution).

  16. #41
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I agree. I don't believe God ever "commanded" or even condoned polygamy (what an awful ins***ution).
    --Well, I don't believe God ever commanded Trinitarianism....

  17. #42
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Well, I don't believe God ever commanded Trinitarianism....
    lol

    Well, I don't believe he did, either. He has always been that way.

  18. #43
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Well, I'm glad you have a problem with that, as well, but do you believe Joseph took advantage of these women/girls? I'm serious, Seebok. Please don't play games with me. What was Joseph's motivation? Why did he marry already married women?
    That's a good question.

    Another one like it is I wonder why the LDS church doesn't readily make this known to even its own members?

    The LDS church even downplays polygamy in general to the general public.

    While on tour of the Beehive House in 2005, Brigham Young's former abode in Salt Lake City, Utah, a young female from Russia told me a blatant lie. (Whether she is responsible for it or is she uninformed and simply parroting what the LDS church told her to say, I don't know.) When I queried her regarding the reason for polygamy in the early LDS church, she stated that Brigham Young married women who unfortunately lost their husbands on the trek west as to "care" for them. That doesn't align with what we know about early Mormon polygamy and D&C 132 and it doesn't align with Joseph Smith's reasons for threatening Emma with "****ation" if she didn't accept The Principle.

    One doesn't have to marry a widow to "care" for her. All one has to do is provide food, clothing, shelter and friends. It's a bad excuse to say that Brigham was caring for them by marrying multiple wives.
    Last edited by Russ; 12-14-2008 at 09:30 AM.

  19. #44
    seebok
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Hiya Russ.

    I agree. I don't believe God ever "commanded" or even condoned polygamy (what an awful ins***ution).
    You can certainly express severe discomfort with polygamy. Everyone who practiced it had that feeling to some extent. What you can't do is deny the reality of the OT where God GAVE additional wives to the patriarchs. But if you insist on denying that reality, Judaism and Christianity would logically be unattractive to you. Perhaps Zoroastrianism might be a good option for you and Russ, I mean, if you want to be consistent and all? ;-)

    Best

    s.

  20. #45
    seebok
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I want to come back to this, Peter.

    I don't think anyone (Father JD or myself) intends to demean the Holy Spirit.
    I believe you are right, but that is indeed what they do.

    I look forward to hearing the logic you have embraced(?) concerning "reason" in the magisterial role. Tell me why that makes sense to you in light if the points I layed out above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    People like Tony Alamo. You have a deep skepticism of him, because of things you have learned about him. How is that different from my skepticism of Joseph Smith (because of things I have learned about him)?
    Then why do you embrace people like Alamo, and if not him, murderers like Martin Luther (father of the Holocaust, not to mention the murderer of 10,000 of my Saxon people), John Calvin (Murderer of John Servetus and dozens of "witches"), JD's very own King Henry (adulterous murderer of his own wife), or Mike MacIntosh (Russ' Jesus Freak drug dealer leader)?

    These alternatives tasted good to you?

    s.

  21. #46
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    That's a good question.

    Another one like it is I wonder why the LDS church doesn't readily make this known to even its own members?

    The LDS church even downplays polygamy in general to the general public.

    While on tour of the Beehive House in 2005, Brigham Young's former abode in Salt Lake City, Utah, a young female from Russia told me a blatant lie. (Whether she is responsible for it or is she uninformed and simply parroting what the LDS church told her to say, I don't know.) When I queried her regarding the reason for polygamy in the early LDS church, she stated that Brigham Young married women who unfortunately lost their husbands on the trek west as to "care" for them. That doesn't align with what we know about early Mormon polygamy and D&C 132 and it doesn't align with Joseph Smith's reasons for threatening Emma with "****ation" if she didn't accept The Principle.

    One doesn't have to marry a widow to "care" for her. All one has to do is provide food, clothing, shelter and friends. It's a bad excuse to say that Brigham was caring for them by marrying multiple wives.
    She didn't lie to you, Russ. That's one of the reasons given for the practice of polygamy in the early church.

  22. #47
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebok View Post
    I believe you are right, but that is indeed what they do.

    I look forward to hearing the logic you have embraced(?) concerning "reason" in the magisterial role. Tell me why that makes sense to you in light if the points I layed out above.



    Then why do you embrace people like Alamo, and if not him, murderers like Martin Luther (father of the Holocaust, not to mention the murderer of 10,000 of my Saxon people), John Calvin (Murderer of John Servetus and dozens of "witches"), JD's very own King Henry (adulterous murderer of his own wife), or Mike MacIntosh (Russ' Jesus Freak drug dealer leader)?

    These alternatives tasted good to you?

    s.
    I didn't embrace any of those people, Peter. I embraced Jesus Christ, alone. He is the one I follow. Not Luther, not Smith, not any man.

    As for putting "reason" in a "magisterial" role, neither have I done that. The Holy Spirit still guides me. But, we have God-given "reason" for a purpose. We are not supposed to set that aside in favor of "feelings" that may or may NOT be a manifestation of the Spirit.

  23. #48
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    She didn't lie to you, Russ. That's one of the reasons given for the practice of polygamy in the early church.
    It's a reason which doesn't square with what we know of Joseph's "revelation" and it's a reason which doesn't square with reason in general.

    Imagine with me.

    Imagine being a frontier woman in a small band of travelers who lost her husband on the trek to Salt Lake. You have a poorly constructed handcart, a few rations and barely survived the winter.

    Upon your arrival in Salt Lake, Brigham Young, out of the goodness of his heart, offers to care for you by marrying you.

    Lib Lib, do you respond to Brigham, "Thank you, kind sir," and become a sister wife, or do you respond, "May I please just have some food, clothes and a place to live? What's with the proposal?"

    Perhaps you're right that she didn't knowingly lie to me. Perhaps she herself accepted the LDS answer to p*** onto others.

    The LDS church, however, is indeed lying as to the reason for polygamy. D&C 132 is the reason.

  24. #49
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I didn't embrace any of those people, Peter. I embraced Jesus Christ, alone. He is the one I follow. Not Luther, not Smith, not any man.

    As for putting "reason" in a "magisterial" role, neither have I done that. The Holy Spirit still guides me. But, we have God-given "reason" for a purpose. We are not supposed to set that aside in favor of "feelings" that may or may NOT be a manifestation of the Spirit.
    Amen, sista!

  25. #50
    Russ
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    Seebok, if God supports polygamy and is fully behind it, then why did "Everyone who practiced it had that feeling {an awful ins***ution} to some extent?"

    Indeed, it is awful. And destructive.

    God tolerates (puts up with) that which we as humans sometimes deem as good and necessary.

    "There is a way which seems right to a man but the end is death."

    There's your free agency.

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