Why should we pick YOURS?

[alanmolstad]

yes...Jesus is both man.....and eternal God almighty

Jesus is man, and so I can call him my "brother'

Jesus is my Lord, and so I can call him my "God"


two natures within the one person.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Which are the Mormon-translated Bibles, and by what magical process does truth disappear from the Bible when a Mormon translates it?

Mormons, especially Smith, do not have the spirit of truth. It is impossible for them to get the Bible right until they repent of their sins and cme to the truth of Jesus and his redemptive work. There is nothing magical just the power of Christ who opens the blind eyes to see.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Mormons, especially Smith, do not have the spirit of truth. It is impossible for them to get the Bible right until they repent of their sins and cme to the truth of Jesus and his redemptive work.

Unless you can prove this objectively, this is just worthless anti-Mormon bigotry that doesn't answer the question.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Unless you can prove this objectively, this is just worthless anti-Mormon bigotry that doesn't answer the question.

There is no such thing as objectivity. Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible (Did God Have A Wife by Dr. Wm. Dever) This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.

It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.

[DrDavidT]

duplicate post

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

There is no such thing as objectivity. Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible (Did God Have A Wife by Dr. Wm. Dever) This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.

It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.

If you consider the Bible as "real evidence"--can you show us what is found in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If you consider the Bible as "real evidence"--can you show us what is found in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You mean like THESE?

Isa 43:10-11
0 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV



Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV


The gods of your false prophet joey smith can't save you from ANYTHING. Not from the penalty for your sins which results in hell. Not by 'exalting' you to your own little make-believe worlds or making YOU into a god. If you are not careful, your false prophet will lead you to where HE is, in hell!

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

There is no such thing as objectivity.

Sure there is. It's just often difficult for humans to achieve, especially when they don't even try.

Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible

Don't know them.

This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.

How so?

It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.

Probably, but not in the way that you think.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

You mean like THESE?

Isa 43:10-11
0 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV



Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Interesting you posted that.

Paul identified the "Rock" of the OT as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Which means the God of the OT was Jesus Christ--and the One speaking in Isaiah.

So--how do you collate the OT theology--with the NT theology?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus is the God of the old test....and the new.(Just as God never starts being God, God never stops being God... )


Jesus is also human, as such my brother.

as a brother, Jesus prayed to the father as I do.

This is why Jesus could call the Father his "God"...yet all the while Jesus never stopped being the 2nd person of the trinity, and thus we can call him "my God"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus is the God of the old test....and the new.(Just as God never starts being God, God never stops being God...

Jesus is also human, as such my brother.

as a brother, Jesus prayed to the father as I do.

This is why Jesus could call the Father his "God"...yet all the while Jesus never stopped being the 2nd person of the trinity, and thus we can call him "my God"

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas go back to the OT to substantiate their beliefs of the Trinity. The NT theology is quite different--and flies in the face of the OT witness--as to the Godhead.

I have yet to see a single Trinitarian attempt to engage the NT witness:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas...

If there ever was any Christian that might call into question anything I might say -

Then they should just step right up ......(Because I would enjoy that moment)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

....

Im not really sure what you are asking me to answer?

But I can just go over again who the person of Christ is for you so we get that dealt with.





Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.
Each person is the One True God.
None of the persons is more "god" that the others.

All 3 persons are equally "God Almighty.

All 3 persons are pure Spirit.


The 3 persons are known to us by the names "Father " and "The Word" (Who becomes the Son named Jesus) and "The Holy Spirit"

In the incarnation, the Word took on human nature. (flesh)

How did the Word do this?....is unknown.

But what we do know is that the Word (now known to the church as the Son of God, Jesus) never stopped being fully God Almighty

So although Jesus is fully Human, and has our human nature, he is also pure spirit and has the divine nature as well...

So Jesus has 2 natures.

Jesus is both God and man.


This is why Jesus could say, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" for Jesus and the father have the very same nature, and this means that all we will ever know of the father is shown us in his son.

For God's nature is spirit, and is therefore always invisible.
But because Jesus has a human nature, we can learn about God though Him, and though him alone..



So as a fully human man, Jesus prayed to the father.
So as a man, Jesus worshiped the father.
So as a man, all the works that Jesus did, all the works were of the father done though Jesus.
So as a man, Jesus has to rely completely on the father for all that he did, for without the father Jesus could not NOTHING!

and that shows us that Jesus is truly 100% human, for this all is true about you and i too!



So, being that Jesus is both God and man, Jesus is also the God of the whole bible, both the Old test and the New test.

And as God is not held by time, this is also why Jesus could say "Before Abraham came to be, I am"...for Jesus is God Almighty, and as such stands unaffected and unbound by time, so Jesus stands with Abraham just as much as he stands with them there when he spoke these words.






Now therefore, once you understand who Jesus is, then all the verses you posted in your comment are held to be very supportive of who Jesus is.

But if you would like me to yet go over each verse one at a time and show you how they support what im saying?...i would be happy to tonight when I get home from work.

But I also do know that if you were to grasp who Jesus is as i have described then this will lead you to deeper understandings to the verses you listed.




so just let me know....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not really sure what you are asking me to answer?

But I can just go over again who the person of Christ is for you so we get that dealt with.

Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.

Each person is the One True God.

If that is a personal belief of yours--then OK.

My point was--the Biblical NT text always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT, and ***igned the "one God" as God the Son's God and Father, IE--

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

How do you collate that with your above testimony?

Where do we find anything in the Biblical NT which states all three persons cons***ute the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

[Christian]

berry posted:

Interesting you posted that.

Paul identified the "Rock" of the OT as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Which means the God of the OT was Jesus Christ--and the One speaking in Isaiah.

So--how do you collate the OT theology--with the NT theology?

NOT a problem. As he posted to you. . . The Father is the ONE REAL GOD, Jesus is the ONE REAL GOD, and the Holy Spirit is the ONE REAL GOD. They are ONE GOD. You don't understand that because:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Because you are unsaved (your FRUITS tell us that) you cannot understand spiritual things; they are foolishness to you. That much is OBVIOUS.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

Already answered. Yes I know. . .you cannot understand. . .

The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Never man-changed-into-godhood
NOT one of MANY gods
NOT the mormon god

Sorry berry, but you just fit the description of
1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

........

Do you want me to go over the verses one at a time now?....or....would you like to post the same list of verses a few more times first?



I can wait.......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do we find anything in the Biblical NT which states all three persons cons***ute the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

The Son is called "God"

The Spirit is called "God"

The father is called "God"




things equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

.......

"Most of Christianity"???



Can you name me one christian guy?

Can you name me one christian church?....that would look at my words and think they were "suspect"??




I can wait........


Here is what I said>
"

Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.
Each person is the One True God.
None of the persons is more "god" that the others.

All 3 persons are equally "God Almighty.

All 3 persons are pure Spirit.


The 3 persons are known to us by the names "Father " and "The Word" (Who becomes the Son named Jesus) and "The Holy Spirit"

In the incarnation, the Word took on human nature. (flesh)

How did the Word do this?....is unknown.

But what we do know is that the Word (now known to the church as the Son of God, Jesus) never stopped being fully God Almighty

So although Jesus is fully Human, and has our human nature, he is also pure spirit and has the divine nature as well...

So Jesus has 2 natures.

Jesus is both God and man.


This is why Jesus could say, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" for Jesus and the father have the very same nature, and this means that all we will ever know of the father is shown us in his son.

For God's nature is spirit, and is therefore always invisible.
But because Jesus has a human nature, we can learn about God though Him, and though him alone..



So as a fully human man, Jesus prayed to the father.
So as a man, Jesus worshiped the father.
So as a man, all the works that Jesus did, all the works were of the father done though Jesus.
So as a man, Jesus has to rely completely on the father for all that he did, for without the father Jesus could not NOTHING!

and that shows us that Jesus is truly 100% human, for this all is true about you and i too!



So, being that Jesus is both God and man, Jesus is also the God of the whole bible, both the Old test and the New test.

And as God is not held by time, this is also why Jesus could say "Before Abraham came to be, I am"...for Jesus is God Almighty, and as such stands unaffected and unbound by time, so Jesus stands with Abraham just as much as he stands with them there when he spoke these words.

"








Now if you think you know a guy who is a Christian, and they hold what Im saying "suspect"?....then just tell them to drop by.


If you know of a Christian church that holds my view of God as "suspect"?....then what church are you thinking of?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IInteresting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas go back to the OT to substantiate their beliefs of the Trinity. The NT theology is quite different--and flies in the face of the OT witness--as to the Godhead.

I have yet to see a single Trinitarian attempt to engage the NT witness:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.

Originally Posted by Christian

The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

No one is arguing the Father is God the Father, the Son is God the Son, or the Holy Ghost is God the Holy Ghost.

But nowhere in the Biblical NT does it join all three as the "one God".

As the NT witness above shows, quite to the contrary--they always separate out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT. Always. Never does any Biblical NT writer join all three persons as the "one God" of the NT.

As I have stated--I have not know any Trinitarian to ever engage that point--they scoff at it--then return to their traditional standard pat answers.

Care to engage the scriptures above? Anyone?

[alanmolstad]

i still want to know what Christian might find my words about the trinity as "suspect"?????


I will wait......take your time....

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No one is arguing the Father is God the Father, the Son is God the Son, or the Holy Ghost is God the Holy Ghost.

But nowhere in the Biblical NT does it join all three as the "one God".

As the NT witness above shows, quite to the contrary--they always separate out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT. Always. Never does any Biblical NT writer join all three persons as the "one God" of the NT.

As I have stated--I have not know any Trinitarian to ever engage that point--they scoff at it--then return to their traditional standard pat answers.

Care to engage the scriptures above? Anyone?

They have been 'engaged' several times. NONE of them (despite your rednecking of words to try to overemphasize them) change the facts

The FACT is that
The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Or do you think God lied in Isaiah 43:10 where HE said no other gods exist, or in 44:6 or in 44:8 where he repeated that in other words, and where He said HE DIDN"T EVEN KNOW any other gods? Are you REALLY willing to call God a liar?

I'll just BELIEVE GOD and BELIEVE that they are the ONE TRUE GOD of the Bible.

You may continue to believe your heretic 'prophet' joey smith.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000cd]
They have been 'engaged' several times.
]

a few years ago we had a guy on this forum that also used to get himself stuck in a posting 'loop" where he would post the same thing over and over.

for a while a few other guests attempted to deal with the verses and stuff that the guy kept bringing up,,,but it was soon clear to all of us that the guy simply had nothing else to his religion.

People would tell the guy that his verses had already been dealt with "lets move on"....but the guy returned to posting the same stuff over and over anyway..


Over and over he would post the same stuff...


He would get criticized for the way it would gum-up the works around here and hold down the conversation, but he just never seemed to care.

Finally a few people had had enough of his same posts over and over.. and reported their problem with the guy's posts and requested some action taken.

and we all noticed that suddenly the guy stopped posting, or being able to post....




I heard little of the guy.....someone once told me he had gotten into trouble on a different forum, ,,for always posting the same things over and over...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

.

still waiting to read the support for your saying 'most of Christianity" ?????



I coould understand it if you had said, "Non-Christians" might find my words suspect

i could understand if you had said,, "The CULTS" would find my words suspect.

I could even understand if you had said, "The people that dont know squat about the Bible" might find my words suspect.


But you said, "Most of Christianity"...?????......and that I will have to see you back that up........... or take it back.....

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Sure there is. It's just often difficult for humans to achieve, especially when they don't even try.


Don't know them.


How so?


Probably, but not in the way that you think.

No there isn't.

Of course you don't they are scholars, people mormons do not read.

Just what I said, there is no middle ground.

avoidance

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

The FACT is that

The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
[I]THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Again--where in the Biblical NT does it ever combine God the Father, God the Son--and God the holy Ghost into the "one God"?

Please do engage these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.