was lucifer created evil?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is what you believe based on your feelings not what the Bible actually teaches.

This is what I know according to the Bible and Jesus Christ, himself. He is the one who said, let the children come to me, because it is such as them who make up the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

I think the verses that talk about being "born in sin" are talking about our natural proclivity towards sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is what I know according to the Bible and Jesus Christ, himself. He is the one who said, let the children come to me, because it is such as them who make up the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

What do you this that this verse is teaching? That in order to get into to heaven you have to live a sin free life?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

What do you this that this verse is teaching? That in order to get into to heaven you have to live a sin free life?

That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have.

Which has nothing to do with whether or not they have sinned or not and yet you are using this verse to support your belief that they do not sin. Don't you see the problem with that?

[Libby]

What I see is that Jesus believed children had more innocence and less guile than most adults.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What I see is that Jesus believed children had more innocence and less guile than most adults.

Here was your prior statement

"That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have."

Again nothing about being sin free. Do you really believe that the message is that in order to enter heaven you have to live a sin free life?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here was your prior statement

"That children are teachable, that they have an open mind and have an innocence that adults often do not have."

Again nothing about being sin free. Do you really believe that the message is that in order to enter heaven you have to live a sin free life?

No. I don't believe that. I know that we need Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No. I don't believe that. I know that we need Jesus Christ.

You asked me way back about verses that show that we all sin and gave you several. You then tried to counter this argument by using Matthew 19:14 which even by your own admission doesn't say one thing about babies not sinning. Don't you realize yet that you are wrong and that you are simply rejecting what the Bible says based on your own feelings rather than on the word of God?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You asked me way back about verses that show that we all sin and gave you several. You then tried to counter this argument by using Matthew 19:14 which even by your own admission doesn't say one thing about babies not sinning. Don't you realize yet that you are wrong and that you are simply rejecting what the Bible says based on your own feelings rather than on the word of God?

No, I don't believe I am wrong about babies, at all. Your verses are figurative.

Babies have a sin nature, just as we all do, but committing actual sin takes accountability (and THAT is Biblical!)...so, even children, who do sin, are not accountable, until they understand that they are sinning.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I don't believe I am wrong about babies, at all.

I know you believe that because it is based on your feelings not on the Bible, you have yet to address the verses that I gave you and the verse you gave me doesn't even talk about whether or not a baby sins.

[Libby]

Goodnight, Billy.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And where in there does is say that babies do not sin?

I think the very definition of the word sin helps us figure out who sins and who does not. If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway. In order to sin, you have to be able to sin. Babies can't sin because they lack both the requirements:

They don't understand what God's will is yet.
Therefore anything they did or failed to do was not rebellion against God on purpose.

If we understand the above, then it helps us figure out the group of people the NT was referring to where it says that all have sinned. It has to exclude babies, just like "ALL" excludes Jesus, because although Jesus knew right from wrong, good and evil, He never deliberately rebelled against God.

If I get too much change back at the store and I don't realize it, I took money that didn't belong to me, but I didn't do it on purpose, so it's not a sin. If I later realize my "sin" and I fail to return the money, THEN it's a sin.

[Libby]

Good observation (about the definition), Jeff.

A baby doesn't even know the concept of sin. Nor does a young baby have the ability to commit a sin. It is not sinful to cry for your needs. Good heavens, we cry to God for our needs, all the time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If sin is the knowing, deliberate disobedience to God's will, then we sin when we understand that doing something would be wrong, and we deliberately do it anyway.

And where did you come up with that definition of sin?

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

[Libby]

I think he was referring to a couple of things. Paul talked about circumcision and other Jewish law that might be sin for Jews, if they don't follow, but not for Gentiles.

He also posted James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them." Seems to infer that if you don't know, it is not sin. Seems like that could apply to babies and mentally handicapped.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he was referring to a couple of things. Paul talked about circumcision and other Jewish law that might be sin for Jews, if they don't follow, but not for Gentiles.

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

Libby tell me what this verse says. BTW you are defending the Mormon position again--not the Christian position. Wouldn't a Christian such as yourself defend Christian beliefs rather that the beliefs of a false religion?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

Libby tell me what this verse says. BTW you are defending the Mormon position again--not the Christian position. Wouldn't a Christian such as yourself defend Christian beliefs rather that the beliefs of a false religion?

You are confusing the issue, as usual. I know plenty of Christians who don't believe babies can sin. Born with a sin nature, yes...but, actually commit personal sin? No. That is far from being just an LDS belief.

[Libby]

Libby tell me what this verse says.

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

It also contradicts several other verses in the Bible. If I have to pick and choose, I'll take from the N.T., which applies to Christians. Not the old Jewish law.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He also posted James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them." Seems to infer that if you don't know, it is not sin. Seems like that could apply to babies and mentally handicapped.

It is true that if you know that you should do something and don't do it that it is sin. But this says nothing about God's laws that you broke and were unaware of breaking them. Which is clearly stated in Leviticus 5:17.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are confusing the issue, as usual.

Not at all Libby you are. Just because someone doesn't know what the Bible teaches doesn't make them right. You are mixing up two separate issues: Sin and accountability. For example a 5 year old kid steals a candy bar from the corner store. He is guilty of breaking the law but he will not be held accountable for his actions nor charged with a crime.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

Leviticus 5:17 “If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible

So was Jeff right or wrong in how he defined sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It says exactly what it says....which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

But these verses that I already gave you do. Which you have totally ignored.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Originally Posted by Billyray

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

which really has nothing to do with whether or not babies sin.

Why the push on your part to say that babies do not sin?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why the push on your part to say that babies do not sin?

No push. I just don't believe they do. I've observed plenty of babies in my lifetime. They don't sin.

Are they born with a propensity towards sin? Yes, absolutely.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No push. I just don't believe they do. I've observed plenty of babies in my lifetime. They don't sin.

Your beliefs go against what the Bible teaches, but what I was tying to get at is why does it make a difference from a Christian point of view if you believe a baby does not sin but a 1 or 2 year old does sin?