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Thread: The Calvinist-Arminian debate

  1. #51
    alanmolstad
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    so....this gets us back in this study of the Calvinist-Arminian debate to the conclusion I came to back in Bible school.

    #1 - Man has Free Will

    and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

    #2 - God is sovereign.

    Both ideas are 100% true


    God is in control of my life, and it is no accident that im saved, while at the same time I have free Will.

    even my Free Will is no accident, but was predetermined to me before the world was made by God.

  2. #52
    alanmolstad
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    so then within our free will can we always do correct things?



    Thats the point of being asked to do correct things.
    As i have said a few times, now, the fact that God gave us the commandments in that act alone we have all the proof we need that we can keep the commandments....
    There would be no point in God asking his children to keep the commandments, if the kids were unable to do so.....that would be insane!
    No good father will demand his children do things that the children are unable to do.



    But we are not just a spirit that is willing to always do what is right....we are also mortal flesh that is weak.

    It is this flesh that is the stumbling point, and this also is the reason we see the Bible talk about the "redemption" of the body.
    This body of flesh gets to speak to us in ways that counter the voice we hear from our Spirits to always do what is right.


    Thus the the two edged sword of free Will is at work in us.

    we can do what is right all the time, for our Spirit longs to do what is right all the time.

    However also within our free will can we also do what is evil all the time?

    yes.

    This is the struggle with the flesh that Paul speaks of.
    So its not that we cant do what is right, that fact that we are asked to always do what is right proves 100% that we can do what is always right....

    So if we can always do what is right, and the fact that we are asked to do this proves it is true, then why do we fail so much?

    The flesh.

    Thus the cross of Christ is there for when we struggle to know or do what is right.
    The human capacity to understand things is limited....we make bad decisions, and when we do the cross of Christ is there to cleanse us from the effects of bad decisions.

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are NEVER asked to do something we cant do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can a person live a perfect life thus not needing the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation?
    You see Alan backed himself into a corner. If he answered my question that is consistent with his position then he would have to answer that yes a person can live a perfect life and not need the sacrifice of Jesus for salvation. He has no choice but to change his position OR put me on ignore. He chose the dishonorable thing and put me on ignore.

  4. #54
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Thus the cross of Christ is there for when we struggle to know or do what is right.
    .
    Within the clasic debate between Calvinist-Arminian positions we read about a lot of lists for how the story of salvation is organized.

    I think all that list making is rather silly.

    What i have seen is that for every guy out there drawing up a list, there is another guy reading his Bible and drawing up a totally different list.

    the whole "list mentality" is dependent on a person's personal point of view.

    One guy says there are like 4 steps to salvation.
    The next guy says there are 9 steps....
    and yes, im sure there is some guy with a 12 step program to salvation too...LOL

    I try to keep my own list short.
    as short as i can make it.

    The Bible says we are saved by Grace though faith.
    and that faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God....


    thats about all there is to my list.

    Grace is what saves us.
    The conduit of Grace is faith.
    The conduit of faith is hearing.
    The conduit of hearing is the Word....

    So at the start there is grace...at the end there is Grace,,,and all along the path there is grace.

    and what Grace does is kick the ball off with the word of God, (the bible)
    The Bible opens the door for hearing Jesus call to us....
    Answering that calling of Jesus (the knock on the door to our hearts) opens the door for faith to grow in us....

    and faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is all that is needed to find salvation and Live everlasting..

  5. #55
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The Bible says we are saved by Grace though faith.
    and that faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God....
    Both sides agree with this Alan.

  6. #56
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Both sides agree with this Alan.
    I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP. Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. Coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with obeying all of the Commandments perfectly. The Bible says all who are weary and downtrodden can come to Christ. The worst sinner can come to Christ. The thief certainly did. Christ died for the sinner, the pros***ute, the criminal, the outcast, the leper. ALL can come to Christ. And everyday they do.


    The bible does indeed teach that man has a free will..That man can choose either to accept or reject Jesus Christ. If he chooses to reject Christ he will be held accountable on Judgment Day. Several Christians told you that on the Mormon category. Not once did any Christian agree with you.

    I was invited to check out this thread, but I'm really not interested in rehashing this all over again with you, Billy. Nor am I Arminian just because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.

    You can go back to playing with Alan.

  7. #57
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP. Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. .
    Are we able to keep all of the commandments?

  8. #58
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Coming to Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with obeying all of the Commandments perfectly
    I never said that once Sword. In fact nobody can keep the commandments can they?

  9. #59
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    The bible does indeed teach that man has a free will.
    So you would agree that man is free to choose to obey the commandments perfectly without ever sinning correct?

  10. #60
    Billyray
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    Sword do you believe those who are spiritually dead in sins and tresp***es have the desire or ability to seek after God on their own OR do you think that God has to draw them?

  11. #61
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    You can go back to playing with Alan.
    See, I was hopeful to "tap out' and watch you ...

    Im not sure I have much interest left to add to this topic.
    and the fact that I have now BLOCKED forever Billy seems to be a sign that this topic has run along as far as its going.

    I dont have any of the notes I made on this topic left over from 25 years ago and the other side of the country...and my memory is not that great at topics like this that I dont have any real interest in.

    But then again....

    Perhaps that "indifference" to this topic is why i don't get swept up very easy in the debates over it?

    one of the things i do remember from my cl*** is that we had this one guy in the cl*** who was dead serious that the Calvinist position was the only correct one.
    He was so sure of this that he went so far as to even question the christian faith of people that disagreed with him.

    Well, if you know me at all, you know that is like ringing the dinner bell to me..."I GOT TO MESS WITH THAT GUY'S MIND"

    I raised my hand after one of his long-winded answers about the depravity of man, and asked..."Whats the difference?"

    at first he didnt catch the meaning of my question, but I went on to ask,,"Whats the real final difference between the Calvinist-Arminian positions?

    Before he answered, i interrupted him with the answer "NONE!
    There is no difference between if one is right and the other is wrong.
    There is nothing different about these answers in the long run.
    They change nothing.
    They add nothing to the christian faith.
    It doesn't matter squat if one is right and the other is wrong, because nothing changes no matter what answer is correct.
    I mean, what changes even if they are both wrong?.....
    ZIP!
    Nothing!
    in fact if both are wrong.....Nothing changes about anything.
    Life goes on, and I still have to mow the gr*** today
    "


    Over the years I have come to see the whole Calvinist-Arminian debate as academic only.

    Its a minor concern for guys who study things like this , but for the vast majority of Christians this is a meaningless debate over details that offer no comfort to anyone.

    in other words, it doesn't matter who is right, because in the end nothing changes no matter what anybody says...

    There is however a danger present whenever this topic pops up.
    The danger is that there are some Christians who lean to the extremes, and do their best to represent the Lunatic Fringe, and seem to use this debate as a way to attack other Christians to the point of calling into question each other's faith.

    That is really my only interest in this debate.
    I just seek to make sure that guys like the one in my cl*** that felt so smug in their views dont have a chance to burden others with this same smugness.....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-30-2011 at 04:49 PM.

  12. #62
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP.
    Here is what Alan said in the first two lines of his OP

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The The Calvinist-Arminian debate is academic.

    it is a debate between two views that both have a lot of bible support.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    . . .because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.
    . . .
    Huh?

    BTW Sword as I have said all along each side has scripture to support their position. I have always stated that I understand and respect your position. But you do not respect my position. Rather you have called my position false and either you or Erik called the Reformed position a Christian cult.
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-30-2011 at 04:51 PM.

  13. #63
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The danger is that there are some Christians who lean to the extremes, and do their best to represent the Lunatic Fringe, and seem to use this debate as a way to attack other Christians to the point of calling into question each other's faith.
    Which of course is exactly what Erik and Sword have done

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    . . .You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved. . .
    Here is Sword referring to the Reformed position as a "cult"

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikErik View Post
    . . .I thought you were a christian, but your actions and understanding of what the scriptures actually does teach, seems to proves otherwise. . .
    And here is Erik labeling me a non Christian


    Just so everyone is clear. I have always stated that I believe that each side has good points. Scripture can be used in support of each side. I have a fair understanding of Erik and Sword's position and I respect their viewpoint. Never did I call their Christianity into question. But both have called mine into question.

  14. #64
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. ......
    Let me build on this a moment...

    The foundation of the faith is built on 'trust"
    We Christians just have to trust God to be able to keep his word.
    The things that we cant actually prove (Like we will be raised from the dead like Jesus) we have to place our trust in that God was telling the truth, and when he said he could raise us up at the last day, that he is actually able to do this.

    It would not just be pointless for God to tell us He will do things that he actually could not do, it would be evil of Him.
    We have to have a consistent honesty from God in order to know we can trust Him.

    God does not get to be honest 'most" of the time.

    This means that when God asks us to do something , we have to be able to do it.
    Asking us to do things that we cant do would not just be pointless, it would be evil of God.

    God's honesty demands that when he tells us to do something, that we must be able to do it.

    of course "able to" and "Likely to" are two different ideas....
    But the fact that we are asked by God to do something means that we are 100% able to do that very thing....

    God does not ask us to do things we cant do.
    God can not ask us to do things we can not do.

  15. #65
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    God does not ask us to do things we cant do.
    God can not ask us to do things we can not do.
    Thus by your own admission you CAN keep all of the commandments. And it is possible for a person to live a perfect life just like Jesus. But any Christian worth his salt knows that this simply is not true.

  16. #66
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    . Nor am I Arminian just because I do not believe in Calvin's false teachings.
    .
    My position too...I see the good points in each side of the question, but also the HUGE flaws each side has going too....

    Im my own view, if you are stuck on supporting only one side you are blind to the merits of the other side....

  17. #67
    dfoJC
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    Hi everyone, I am not quite sure how to approach the at***udes I see being displayed in this thread. Not going to point fingers or anything like that but I would just like to remind us that yes, it is good to have healthy debate and even to offer our opinions on doctrines or belief.

    But let us do so in the spirit of kindness, being ready to forgive if someone offends us, this will help us to demonstrate what it is to be a Christian. It will speak volumes to those who don't post and just read what we are saying.

    I do thank you for the truths and knowledge that you share here at WM, keep up the good work.

    dfoJC

  18. #68
    alanmolstad
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    #1 - Man has Free Will

    and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

    #2 - God is sovereign.

    Both ideas are 100% true


    God is in control of my life, and it is no accident that im saved, while at the same time I have free Will.
    For even my Free Will is no accident, but was predetermined to me before the world was made by God.

    So that is how we all have Free Will within the rule of God over His universe.
    If you have a chance, and still don't understand how man's free Will works?,,,try to read my example of being on a big ship and having freedom to walk and stand and sit, and many things that have nothing to do with the control of the ship and its direction.

    Does man have the ability to do what god has asked?
    If he cant there would have been no point in God asking us to do things we cant do.

    So there is nothing physically or mentally limiting about humans that keep us from following what God has told us to do.
    But we should never mix up the "ability" to do something with the "likelihood" of it happening.

    God has asked us to do things , to be sure.
    But nothing He has asked us to do is actually beyond our abilities....
    I think we all see that any god that asks his children to do more than they ever could do, and then sends them to hell when they fail is a monster.

    Does a good father demand his children do things he knows that can never do? ( would a father ask his baby to change a car tire?)....and when they give their effort to do what is well out of their ability to do, would a good father punish them for their failure?....(would a father spank the baby for being unable to change the car tire?)

    no?...

    Then how could a loving God ask His children to do things he already knew they were not able to do?
    Would hell even exist if we were not free-willed creatures?......

    I dont think so....LOL

    This means that the proof that we have Free Will is found in the creation of a Hell....
    For I think we all know that a god that would create a Hell would not sentence people to burn forever in its fire unless the person had the free will and could have chosen to act in a manner that would have allowed them to another fate.

    a loving god could not create men with no free will, and then send them to hell for being unable to do things they were not able to do anyway......

    God's justice demands humans have Free Will.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 06-02-2011 at 04:36 AM.

  19. #69
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfoJC View Post
    Hi everyone, I am not quite sure how to approach ......
    I did give him plenty of warning....but he has Free Will to do what he wants....

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    #1 - Man has Free Will

    and yet at the same time and without confrontation or contradiction:

    #2 - God is sovereign.

    Both ideas are 100% true

    Alan they are mutually exclusive.

  21. #71
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Alan they are mutually exclusive.

    No they are not.

    God is sovereign,
    and because God has such confidence in his rule over the universe He has granted onto man to have Free Will.

    a lesser god could not do this.
    a lesser god would never dare offer Free Will to His creation because he would be worried that things would soon get out of His control.

    But the God of the bible is not one bit worried about such things.

    This is why we have Free Will...because our God actually is sovereign.

    any questions?

  22. #72
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    I have just read all the posts on this thread and noticed that you never once addressed the OP.



    Alan made a very good point about how God never asks us to do some that we are unable to do. .
    I also noticed that Billy was unable to answer my point about if God asked us to do things he knew were were unable to do?

    I think we all understand that if a parent asks a child to do things that they simply are unable to do, that it would be then wrong for that parent to condemn the child for attempting to do what was asked of them and then failing.

  23. #73
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I also noticed that Billy was unable to answer my point about if God asked us to do things he knew were were unable to do?

    I think we all understand that if a parent asks a child to do things that they simply are unable to do, that it would be then wrong for that parent to condemn the child for attempting to do what was asked of them and then failing.
    So true. When a person believes in something so strongly, its hard to convince them of their errors. I don't know how much exposure Billy has had to the truth, but he went from Mormonism to Calvinism. Both are extreme with some false teachings. Only the Holy Spirit can open Billy's eyes. I pray that happens.

  24. #74
    alanmolstad
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    what is true is that this question is both important , and a moot point at the same time.

    The question of human Free Will is interesting and appeals to some Christians who study this issue.

    But the thing I like to point out is that regardless of the position on this issue a guy takes, nothing actually changes.
    There is really no difference between going to a church that teaches that man has Free Will and going to a church that teaches that man has no free will.

    Nothing actually is any different.

    Oh there might be a sermon or two that is very different, but that's about it.

    This is basically an academic question with no real significance to it by itself.

    Thus the foolishness of some Christians to get all in-your-face excited over this question is plain to see.

    So what is the merit of this debate?
    The benefit of this debate is that it shows the Lost world that Christians are not robots where we all have to think the same.

    This question also is a good one for people in CULTS to follow as it brings to their attention a subject they may have forgotten as they got swept up in the CULT......

    "Freedom of thought"


    Thats the really only thing about this debate I find much merit in.
    That we in the Christian church have a freedom that you cant share if you are in a CULT.

    Im not in a CULT....one of the proofs of this is that I am always free to totally disagree with my own church leadership.

    There is liberty to debate in the Christian church.
    There is freedom of thought, freedom to express one's thoughts that is about the 1st thing a person gives up when they become a member of a CULT.

    There is merit in being free to make one's own mistakes.
    people in CULTs are kept from thinking for themselves, its the trade-off the person makes to be what they consider always 'right"

    The need to be always right means you have to get rid of the desire to be always "free"

    I desire to be free more than I desire to be always right., But a person in a CULT has a different goal than mine.

    That's why guys like me dont last long in a CULT.
    Guys like me call into questions things that go against the Bible....We stand up and disagree on points where we see error.
    We dont give a darn if this makes our church look bad to others....

    We dont give a rip about marching in lock-step with our church leadership.....

    Freedom means more to us that our church looking good.

  25. #75
    alanmolstad
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    The Calvinist-Arminian debate

    another thing to keep in mind is that the Calvinist-Arminian debate never ends in any difference for people.

    This means that while we have many members of the christian church that fight very hard to prove they are correct on this issue, the net result of all their struggle is......"Nothing"

    Nothing changes.
    The life of the average Christian does not change at all from going from one side of this debate to the other.

    This then means that this whole issue falls into the category of being a rather minor issue with no real effect on Christians.

    Compare this question to say another question that gets debated from time to time...like..."Baptism"

    Now Baptism is a VERY IMPORTANT question for people to debate as the results of that debate can have a very real effect on people's lives.

    The age someone get baptized, the steps a person had to take to get baptized, and the form of that baptism all matter to average Christians.
    The issue of baptism is far more important that the debate over the truth of Calvinism.


    why is this fact important ?

    Its important because of the fact that on this and other forums I have watched guys go crazy over the Calvinist-Arminian debate to the point they ended up getting banned.

    think of that for a moment....

    a guy gets banned over the most minor of issues in the Christian church?


    how does that happen?


    I think the reason is, that some people just dont think before they speak or write.


    What advice would I give a guy who has ended up banned from a message forum over his total failed attempt to have a nice conversation over the most minor of issues?

    I would tell that guy that he needs to "Repent"
    To "Repent" means to "Re" - "think"...or to "Think again"

    In more modern wording the phrase would be "Spend some of your new free time thinking over how you ended up where you are so that next time you dont end up there once again"

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