New Books

[DrDavidT]

Wrong again. Read the books first

[alan]

no you are in error David, ,,,and Im helping you see that

[alan]

the Bible says that "In the beginning" and that means before anything else...."God created the heavens...."

Before all the other things that would happen in the genesis story we have the source for all the lights later listed in the story....

No need for a magic light source !...

[alan]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Wrong again. Read the books first

So....Im reading one of your books now.

and.......

Im still looking for the important part?

The book is the archaeology one...and you go on and on about "Oh a christian should not fall for that"...but you dont really come off as being very helpful for a believer...

So far as Im reading, you list a topic like the age of the earth according to science, and all you say to that to your reader is, "Dont fall for that?"

Thats not really helpfull,,,,

[DrDavidT]

Glad you bought one thank you. There are 2 archaeological books and I do not recall saying those things

[alan]

so far, every page is the same....

short paragraphs where you take a finding of science, and then try to cast doubt on it, and write that from a Christian point of view you cant believe the science findings.

every page so far is the same....on page 97 you have it there that to find support for the findings of science means the church has nothing to offer the world.

Thats just silly.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alan

so far, every page is the same....

short paragraphs where you take a finding of science, and then try to cast doubt on it, and write that from a Christian point of view you cant believe the science findings.

every page so far is the same....on page 97 you have it there that to find support for the findings of science means the church has nothing to offer the world.

Thats just silly.

That is highly doubtful. and the short paragraphs make the book easier to read. No you can't believe scientific conclusions, theories etc. as they do not come from God

[alan]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I quote you "No you can't believe scientific conclusions, theories etc. as they do not come from God"

thats counter to the Bible...

Read Genesis 2:19- 20

This is the beginning of all science.
Notice that science is God's idea.

and...

Notice that God does not force the man to name the animals what God wanted them named.

Thats why your statement failed to be in agreement with the Bible.

You cant just say, "That finding of science did not come from god, so we cant believe it".
You cant say that because clearly the Bible is teaching us that science is God's idea.
It pleases God that man searches for understanding and to reach conclusions about the universe.

Your views, your stated conclusions about science, and your book are going the wrong way.

[DrDavidT]

you twist scripture to fit your point of view. thanks for buying the book but I won't discuss with you anymore

[alan]

well.....

Here is a little thing I might point out to you....

If you simply cant handle a Christian that has this slight disagreement with you about the side issues of how to understand Genesis, HOW.....oh HOW will you ever manage to stand against the storm when true non-believers oppose you?

think about that....

Think about that for a moment....for here on this Walter Martin Forum you have a chance to practice your ability to defend your views with a Christian brother who always shows respect for you as a person, and who invites you to stand up and speak from your heart all you have to say.

When is that going to happen in the real world?......(it never happens)

When are you going to ever find a "debate partner" that is so easy to get along with and so ready to go the extra mile for you?


Iron sharpen iron......but only when you hold both irons together.....

[alan]

here, is a better way to look at the world of science.

"Science is God's idea for men"

Science is a holy task given men....the men of science deserve our respect....

The findings of science are to be seen as helping us understand the Lord's handiwork.

I reject the idea that science is the foe we are to fight against.
on page 98 you set up the church as being on one side and science on the other.

You are saying that to simply be in the world of science you have to compromise.....thats silly.

I think its a bad idea to make the claim that to support the mission of Jesus you have to be at odds with astronomers, (see page 99)

[alan]

I think the real danger here is that in a misguided attempt to be a Christian leader/writer, that we are writing things that will only tend to cause harm to the faith of people, and to end up driving the best and the brightest members of the church out....

Works that push the idea that science/ schooling, etc, are anti-Christian is only going to force men of science within the church to feel unwanted...unneeded....

[alan]

Let me share with you David a bit of my own history with the Young Earth Teachers...

It was back in the 1990s that my church in Seattle decided to bring in a teacher that would support our church position on Genesis/evolution.

That teacher that we had was names Ken Ham.
Ken Ham was at that time, (and likely still is) the world's most well known Young Earth Creation teacher.

Later Ken Ham would go on to built that Noah's Ark thing that gets all the attention in these debates.

Ken taught my bible lessons for 8-weeks.
At the time our bible study was mostly a core gathering of about 8 to 12 of us with our wives.

I made it to each lesson on time, , I paid attention, I took notes, I got some of his books that were for sale after each lesson.

So I do have a kinda good understanding of YEC teachings, as I have been taught them personally by about the best YEC teacher alive.

and.....

and in the end I found all his teachings were based on a false understanding of Genesis 1:1

The whole YEC teachings falls like a house of cards once you start to see that if Ken were to read the Genesis story as written he would not be teaching as he does...

[alan]

But the main problem of all the Young Earth Creation teachers and writers, is that they replace the words found in the text with their own.

They have to do this because what is written in the Text does not support their views.

So they add to the Bible, that pile on meanings ,,,they bring in other text regardless of the context...


and....when you try to point out what the Bible says, they list you as a foe of God.
They call you names,
They take it personal,,,and make snarky personal remarks.
They try very hard to make you stop sharing your side, and do what they can to drive you out of the church.

They dont list you as just a bad teacher, they list you as a bad person.
They dont want you to just stop speaking, they want you to get out of the church...


and that is why many leave the church....driven out by people who should have been holding the door open for , not slamming it shut in their face...

[DrDavidT]

It looks like I am being blocked and cannot respond anymore. I made the same response twice only to have it not posted. Suffice it to say alan is very wrong, leading people to sin and doe snot have a hol don the truth

[alan]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I quote you - "It looks like I am being blocked and cannot respond anymore. I made the same response twice only to have it not posted. Suffice it to say alan is very wrong, leading people to sin and doe snot have a hol don the truth"

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Well David, I will go over your comments where you seem to want to make this about me personally?. in a moment

But first -
as far as I can see, you are not being blocked,
However over a year or so ago the owner of this site, (Walter Martin's daughter) had the website do a few changes, and after that was done there have been several issues that we just have to lear to deal with if you want to post here.

One of them is that you cant use many words now as the "censor" setting now is set very tricky, and a lot of words get blocked out that are really not bad words at all.

The other issue I have seen is that many times the forum simply will not post a message?
Or it will post a message , but a long time later, and this might cause you to think you have been blocked.

You are not blocked....just being trapped in the website's "purgatory"

[alan]

Now....here is how to understand the "days" of Genesis...

You understand it in the Bible manner.
Its that simple.

For example, when we in the world of students of the Bible talk about "The day of the Lord", what are we talking about?

Are we talking about a single 24 hour day?
Just one day, then the world goes back to the way it was before?

another example, "When Jesus talked about the "Hour of darkness" was he just talking about a short 3600 seconds?


Now when we deal with the Book of Genesis we always run into people that will try to say, "Oh the addition of the words 'evening and morning" mean it has to be only 24 hours!"

They love to try to use that arguement, but what they dont like to have pointed out is that while the first 6 days of the Creation week all have clear endings, the 7th day has no ending in the story!

No ending for the 7th day is found in the whole book of Genesis!


No ending in the whole Bible !

[alan]

So with no ending to the 7th day in the whole Bible, we got to ask, "Do we have a right to add our own ending to the scriptures?"

So do we?

I dont think we do.

[alan]

So David....

Now about the personal stuff....
By "personal stuff" I mean when a post is more about the other person, and no longer just about bible text.

I try to over look that kind of posting.

I have been a member of this forum for a long.....long.....long time.

and over the years I have been in conversations with all types, not just Christians,
People in cults.
People in Islam
People in different movements.
People with all kinds of weird ideas.

and one thing I have noticed in them all is a common manner they tend to act when they dont get their way.
They get nasty.
They get personal.

They get frustrated that their favorite arguments don't work, and so that try to change the topic and make this "about the other person"

They go from just talking about their "ideas" to later only being able to attack the other person.

So David....its just you and me here now.
There are no audience of listeners following the conversation on this forum any more.

Just you and I.

I have read your book....I did this because you requested it.

No one forced me to get such a book...I have only done so as a way to open a door to being able to take my turn at reaching you with what I have to share.

and this is what I have to share.....its a challenge/question.


Here is is...


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Show me where the Bible teaches that the 7th day has ended?



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Thats it David,
Justr that one request for a support from the Bible that teaches the 7th day has already ended that is clear and does not require the reader to insert a meaning into the text that is not found there.

for 6 days we have very clear endings. Each day ends with the very same words used.
Its written so clearly that you cant miss it .

, and if you can show me such a clear ending to the 7th day then you are correct.


But...
If you cant?


Then I then ask you to challenge me to address any other issues that tend to sway people to the Young Earth Creation teachers....and see if I can answer them?

[alan]

today is Oct 20, and a moment ago on NASA Tv I watched the TAG sample/return mission land on a rock in space that is untold billions of years old, take a sample, and back away.

I was so proud of the people at NASA and my country.

I am also reminded of the fact this type of science is talked about in the Genesis story when God brings the animals to the man to see what the man would call them?

This genesis story is the first science by man and is about the study of God's creation.

Science and the search for understanding of the universe is God's idea for men...

[DrDavidT]

they can't verify that age for the rock. don't twist the scripture, it is not an ancient science lesson but a revelation

[DrDavidT]

Exodus 20:11
Verse Concepts

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Creation

[DrDavidT]

But the main problem of all the Young Earth Creation teachers and writers, is that they replace the words found in the text with their own.

That is just wrong as almost every scholar recognizes that Genesis 1 is written by God in a manner that records 24 hour days.

You are not pointing out what the Bible says but false ideas which do make you a foe of God. If those people do not want to change and still continue to hold to a false scientific idea of origins, then they need to leave the church. The church stands with God's word, not false teachers

[DrDavidT]

For anyone reading this thread all books are on sale still. we made a post at our theoarch dot wordpress dot com site as to why we wrote those works

[alan]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

.....I quote youy - ". If those people do not want to change and still continue to hold to a false scientific idea of origins, then they need to leave the church."

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What you are doing is driving the best and the brightest of Christians out of the church , all over a disagreement they might have with your personal views.

Thats like saying, "You disagree with me about eating ___ so you get out!"

or saying - "You disagree with me over drinking ___ so you must get out of the church!"

My suggestion to you is as you stand at the doorway of your church, to remember the words of our Lord, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

Then decide if you are there to open that door?....or try to slam it shut?