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Thread: Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

  1. #1
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Default Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

    After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

    Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

    So here is my final question.

    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

    My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

  2. #2
    GraftedIn73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post

    Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

    So here is my final question.

    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

    My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.
    Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

    No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

    The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

    Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

    How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

    Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

    Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

    GI73

  3. #3
    PostTribber
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    Default Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation? My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

    "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

    as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

    this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
    (James 1:15)

  4. #4
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraftedIn73 View Post

    Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

    No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

    The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

    Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

    How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

    Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

    Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

    GI73
    Thanks GraftenIn

    Your answers make sense to me. I believe that Repentance is a daily walk, and is never done. I think we are in agreement on that.

    I also agree that many will not have the opportunity for baptism in mortality. LDS believe that this ordinance cannot be skipped, for anyone. We believe that the work of converting souls continues after this life, in the world of spirits. And those who would have accepted this ordinance and their covenants with God but who did not have the opportunity in this life, will be able to receive those things in the world of Spirits.

    Thanks for your perspective.

  5. #5
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by PostTribber View Post
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

    "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

    as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

    this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
    (James 1:15)
    Thanks, PT.

    I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.

  6. #6
    PostTribber
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    Default agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.
    "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

    simple enough. no need for all these 'Jimmy-come-lately's.

  7. #7
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Thanks, PT.

    I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.
    What are the things a person must do to be saved in the LDS religion.

    Just off the top of my head:

    • Be baptized Mormon by another Mormon with authority to do so
    • Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by another Mormon with authority to do so.
    • ***he 10% of one's gross income
    • Receive the LDS endowment (an initiatory rite performed in LDS temples
    • Be married to another Mormon in an LDS temple
    • Participate in "callings" (Relief Society, ward cl***es, singles wards, etc.)
    • Support the leadership of the LDS church
    • Make covenants and keep them
    • Repent
    • Have faith
    • Gain and maintain a testimony that the LDS church is true and the Book of Mormon is from God


    What else must a person do to be saved?

  8. #8
    Father_JD
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    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian?
    Yes, resulting in abundance or lack of heavenly rewards.

    Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?
    No, because salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.
    Last edited by Father_JD; 05-12-2009 at 02:13 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Yes, resulting in abundance or lack of heavenly rewards.



    No, because salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.

    Finally, something we can agree on

    Mormons believe that through the atonement of Christ, all men are saved by overcoming death as all will die and meet the God who created him. Without this resurrection, all of us would be dead permantly, without any hope of life after death.

    Thus, this type of salvation is given to all me through the grace of God. As is stated scripturally:

    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    But, there are differences in the rewards or the abundance in which we received based on obedience. Mormons call this reward "degrees of glory." In other words, when we are obedient, the more we learn to be like God and the more like him we are, the more of his glory we experience. In this way, someone who believes in God, but is disobedient will not experience as much of his glory.

    An example of this can be seen when raising children. As parents, you want to give them everything, but you find you can only give them as much as they are willing to accept. A disobedient child rejects the love of their parents and thus a measure of their parents gifts. It is the same with God the Father. He desires all of us to experience his full glory, but he can only give as much as we accept through obedience.

  10. #10
    Father_JD
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    No, "resurrection" does NOT = salvation.

    This is typical Mormon equivocation/re-definition of the term.
    Last edited by Father_JD; 05-13-2009 at 01:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    No, "resurrection" does NOT = salvation.

    This is typical Mormon equivocation/re-definition of the term.
    And only someone who does not understand resurrection is a form of salvation would make such a statement as if Christ's overcoming death is not really anything to be grateful for and your life has not really been saved.

  12. #12
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    And only someone who does not understand resurrection is a form of salvation would make such a statement as if Christ's overcoming is not really anything to be grateful for and your life has not really been saved.
    Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

    You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

    You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk.
    A second death---show there must have been a rebirth somewhere along the line.

    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    Scriptures matches this perfectly. Being saved means overcoming death. If it is understood whether Paul is referring to being saved over physical death or being saved over spiritual death, his writings become much easier to understand. As I said before, once it is understood, there is no more debate about whether one can fall from grace or not and the role sin, repentence, and baptism plays in salvation and why we are told to keep the commandments.

    Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    Last edited by BigJulie; 05-14-2009 at 12:31 PM.

  14. #14
    Father_JD
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

    You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk.

    A second ---show there must have been a rebirth somewhere along the line.
    Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism:


    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here:


    1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the , how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the ?


    1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the , then is Christ not risen:


    1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.


    1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the rise not.


    1Cr 15:16 For if the rise not, then is not Christ raised:


    1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.


    1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


    1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


    1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


    1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    The context is about:

    1. Christ's own resurrection.
    2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
    3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming.

    The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.

    And here you wrench Paul's words yet again in a vain effort to make them "universalistic" and conform to Mormon dogma:


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    So yet again I must feed you the context in order to dispel your misunderstanding of Paul's words:



    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".


    Scriptures matches this perfectly. Being saved means overcoming . If it is understood whether Paul is referring to being saved over physical or being saved over spiritual , his writings become much easier to understand. As I said before, once it is understood, there is no more debate about whether one can fall from grace or not and the role sin, repentence, and baptism plays in salvation and why we are told to keep the commandments.

    The context trumps your alien imposed Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text each and every time.

    Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    And indeed you were, following a FALSE prophet who has led you after the FALSE gods of Mormonism.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.
    Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism:
    It doesn't say that they will spend eternity in a lake of fire, it says they go into a lake of fire and there is eternal torment. There is a difference....think of it this way, their sins will be completely exposed by the fire of the Holy Ghost and they will suffer eternally because of this. If you want to start interpretting revelation, you need to understand the words fire and eternal.



    As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here:
    No, I am reading it in context...

    1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


    1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    The context speaks that all men will overcome death, first Christ then those who come afterwards, and in this case, Paul explains to those he is writing to, that they will come right after Christ because they are his followers. If you read the Bible as a whole, you will see that everyone will be resurrected and meet the God who created them. As it says, ever man in his own order. If you pretend like there is no other verses other than these in the Bible, this should at a minimum cause you confusion because Paul states that because of Adam ALL die and becaues of Christ ALL are made alive. This seems like such a simple explanation from Paul--because by one man came death, so does life come by one man Jesus Christ. Then Paul explains that in the resurreciton, man will be resurrected in an order. First Christ will be resurrected and then those who follow Christ---but what about those who didn't follow Christ? Are they not resurrected as well---yes! So, by one man came death---Adam...by one man came life--Jesus Christ, but everyone in their order.

    The context is about:

    1. Christ's own resurrection.
    2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
    3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming.
    Why would God refer to those who come first if there is not those who come after. If you keep reading, it says that Christ puts all things under his feet and turns over everything to God. You misunderstand if you think that Christ is not in charge of everything on the earth, of the earth, and in the earth. While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates. After everything has been restored, the great day of judgement comes where those who are wicked will be exposed and they will be tormented both by what they did or did not do and by their inability to choose freedom and eternal life.

    The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.
    Nope, you are missing that the grave shall give up all their dead even the wicked. Do you think this would be possible without Christ?



    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".
    So, if I read that verse as you read it, many were made sinners and many were made righteous...can you please explain to me which of us who have been born are not sinners? If I apply the word many both ways?

    A really easy way to answer this is if you believe that all will overcome death--will all be saved from physical death? Do you believe this is something that would happen without Christ or is this something that required Christ's atonement to bring about? You can ask yourself "Did Christ save everyone from physical death?"

    As I stated before, once you read the scriptures in this context and that all received this grace, to overcome phyical death, then Paul becomes an easy read. Those who believe in Christ understand that their life is not their own. Those who do not believe in Christ do not understand this even though their lives have also been paid for with a price. Paul, is of course, speaking to the believers when he writes to the different areas. Therefore, his address to them would be specific to understanding both their salvation in the physical sense and their salvation in the spiritual sense.

    This understanding would stop the divisions that occur within Christianity whether one can fall from grace.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 05-14-2009 at 03:38 PM.

  16. #16
    Father_JD
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    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

    Quote:
    Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism:


    It doesn't say that they will spend eternity in a lake of fire, it says they go into a lake of fire and there is eternal torment. There is a difference....think of it this way, their sins will be completely exposed by the fire of the Holy Ghost and they will suffer eternally because of this. If you want to start interpretting revelation, you need to understand the words fire and eternal.
    LOL. You've gotta stop RE-DEFINING Biblical terms in a vain effort to make them conform to Mormon dogma. It's clear from scripture that the devil, his angels, the "beast" and his false prophet are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented ETERNALLY and those not found in Christ have the same fate:


    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


    Rev 20:12 And I saw the , small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the which were in it; and and hell delivered up the which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


    Rev 20:14 And and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second .


    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Cf: Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and ers, and mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second .


    You have ZERO evidence that the fate of the ****ed is temporal, making the lake of fire into some kind of Mormon "purgatory".





    Quote:
    As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here:

    No, I am reading it in context...
    I'm sure you think you are, but you unconsciously superimpose alien Mormon meaning onto the biblical text at every turn.


    Quote:
    1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


    1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


    1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    The context speaks that all men will overcome , first Christ then those who come afterwards, and in this case, Paul explains to those he is writing to, that they will come right after Christ because they are his followers. If you read the Bible as a whole, you will see that everyone will be resurrected and meet the God who created them. As it says, ever man in his own order. If you pretend like there is no other verses other than these in the Bible, this should at a minimum cause you confusion because Paul states that because of Adam ALL die and becaues of Christ ALL are made alive. This seems like such a simple explanation from Paul--because by one man came , so does life come by one man Jesus Christ. Then Paul explains that in the resurreciton, man will be resurrected in an order. First Christ will be resurrected and then those who follow Christ---but what about those who didn't follow Christ? Are they not resurrected as well---yes! So, by one man came ---Adam...by one man came life--Jesus Christ, but everyone in their order.
    I explained it to you for you to do the Mormon "thing": give a nuh-uh response. I repeat: Paul QUALIFIES what he means:

    Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone.
    Those who are "in Christ" which means ONLY THE ELECT, REDEEMED PEOPLE OF GOD.

  17. #17
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    Quote:
    The context is about:

    1. Christ's own resurrection.
    2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
    3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming.

    Why would God refer to those who come first if there is not those who come after. If you keep reading, it says that Christ puts all things under his feet and turns over everything to God. You misunderstand if you think that Christ is not in charge of everything on the earth, of the earth, and in the earth. While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates. After everything has been restored, the great day of judgement comes where those who are wicked will be exposed and they will be tormented both by what they did or did not do and by their inability to choose freedom and eternal life.
    Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.


    Quote:
    The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.

    Nope, you are missing that the grave shall give up all their even the wicked. Do you think this would be possible without Christ?
    Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so. You're missing the point as usual:

    The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.


    Quote:
    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Quote:
    The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".


    So, if I read that verse as you read it, many were made sinners and many were made righteous...can you please explain to me which of us who have been born are not sinners? If I apply the word many both ways?
    It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.


    A really easy way to answer this is if you believe that all will overcome --will all be saved from physical ? Do you believe this is something that would happen without Christ or is this something that required Christ's atonement to bring about? You can ask yourself "Did Christ save everyone from physical ?"
    You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second Death". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.

    As I stated before, once you read the scriptures in this context and that all received this grace, to overcome phyical , then Paul becomes an easy read. Those who believe in Christ understand that their life is not their own. Those who do not believe in Christ do not understand this even though their lives have also been paid for with a price. Paul, is of course, speaking to the believers when he writes to the different areas. Therefore, his address to them would be specific to understanding both their salvation in the physical sense and their salvation in the spiritual sense.
    There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.

    This understanding would stop the divisions that occur within Christianity whether one can fall from grace.
    This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post

    Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.
    A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.


    Quote:
    The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.
    Thank you for the put-downs.


    Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so.
    And this is another main difference of your intrepretations and beliefs and mine. Unlike you, I do not believe we would be resurrected if it was not for the atonement and resurrection of Christ.

    The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.
    Christ speaks of a greater ****ation which indicates that there is a lesser ****ation. As you stated that there are different rewards, there are also different degrees of salvation.

    Quote:
    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Quote:
    The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".
    I can see how you read it the way you do, but I don't. I see a broader vision in which Paul is teaching how we are saved.

    It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.
    It speaks to the grace unto physical salvation or grace unto spiritual salvation. Paul teaches how we overcame physical death and makes a comparison to how we overcome spiritual death. For by one man came death and so by one man came life....but because more than one man is a sinner and there are many sins, it is an amazing gift that by one man all these many sins were covered. This is a direct comparison so that the righteous can appreciate the full scope of what Christ did. I sorry I do not read this as you do. It says be one man all die and by one man all live and then goes on to speak of how this now applies to sin and spiritual death. Do you want me to take this line by line with you so you can see how I read it?



    You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second Death". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.
    I do and I also realize how God's grace applies to even the ****ed. Do you believe that all the ****ed are sons of perdition?


    There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.
    After they have been saved which is why this is called the second death.


    This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible.
    [/QUOTE] Thank you for the put-downs again.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.
    Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

    I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

    And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

    I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

    I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

    And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

    I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.
    On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.
    In post#15 you said:

    ...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

    Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

    You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

    Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

    Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

    Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.
    Last edited by Bat-Man; 05-15-2009 at 02:07 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    In post#15 you said:

    ...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

    Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

    You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

    Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

    Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

    Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.
    Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

    The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

    Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?
    Cain will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, unless he will have gotten himself out of the really big mess he got himself into when God called him "Perdition"... not "son of perdition", but "Perdition", himself... and at that time he will suffer the second death, which is to be eternally separated from God, our Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost, AND all of us who have followed THEM.

    The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.
    Yes, I realize that. I'm not trying to get involved in your discussion, really.

    I'm just pointing out that Father_JD was right, when you said he was wrong, because I think the poor guy should get credit from us at least once in a while when he actually says something which is actually true.

    Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.
    Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

    I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

    I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

    Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.
    Last edited by Bat-Man; 05-15-2009 at 02:29 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

    I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

    I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

    Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.
    Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will. He will put all things under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them. Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

    The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference; therefore, when he reads in Adam all die and in Christ shall all be made alive, he is not interpretting it to mean the whole human race, but rather only those who have followed Christ. I do not think this is what Paul was stating. I believe he was comparing the grace Christ gave to all men based on one man's act (Adam) and the grace he gives to all men based on all the sins of men committed.



    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.


    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
    So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.

    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.


    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
    So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....


    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    ... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 05-15-2009 at 02:56 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will.
    That is right, and I will now give you credit where I see credit is due.

    He will put all things# under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them.
    # I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?

    Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.
    I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

    Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.

    The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference.
    I'm on your side on this one, BigJulie.

    Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

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