Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?

Hi Hogan:

Two points here:

1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?

As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.

Can one be saved without being justified?

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Two points here:

1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?



Can one be saved without being justified?



Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.

When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.


The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."


The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.


The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."


The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.

Hi Hogan:

All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Were these saved previous to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19----King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:


Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

.

Because Jesus Christ alone saves.

Acts 4:12, " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

God promises us eternal life when we believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1 "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are justified by faith in Christ.

"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

The moment you put your faith in Christ, who died for your sins and rose again, you have eternal life and will live forever with God! Eternal life is a gift, given by God, to anyone who will put their trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. This is called grace, because God is giving us something we don’t deserve-life forever with Him.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.

The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)[B]
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

And that, through our obedience to Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)[B]
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

And that, through our obedience to Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. They’re forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankind’s sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

Romans 3:25a

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. They’re forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankind’s sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

Romans 3:25a

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith

a word to the wise:

you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

a word to the wise:

you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.

David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

David, I was on here some years back long before you.....

back in 2011 the forum had some computer issues, and all of the members had to re-sign on...so we all got new names and stuff at that point.
The screen name I have now is different as we all had to get new names, so i just changed the use of Capitals letters of my name.


I remember at the time a few guests got a bit upset as they liked to see how many years each other were members here. (typical boys, always comparing)

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?

You read those emotions into my posts. I do not put them there.

[DrDavidT]

what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology

it does come in streaks to be sure.

It does seem odd how sometimes we have a bunch of people from one religion sorta sweep in and take over...only to all disappear?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race.

Hi Hogan:

I agree--just as the education system is able to educate all men. But to obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria set by the school.

To gain the remission of sins--one has to obey the criteria of the Redeemer:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

They’re forgiven.

Please do show us any scriptures which state all men are forgiven of their sins.

If that is so--then why does God reject these?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe.

If it's finished--then why can't it be done until we believe? Are you saying God left something undone? Unfinished?

Hogan--if the Atonement needed your faith to be complete--it would have failed--for, it took Christ's perfection, plus nothing--and if you added your imperfect faith to it--it would have failed.