What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

I already said no.

So you are not saved after conversion (faith and repentance)?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

I'll say it again: regeneration and spiritual rebirth/being saved are the same thing.

Regeneration = spiritual birth = born again

Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Agree or disagree?

[alanmolstad]

once again, Chicken or the egg?

its a pointless debate....

[Billyray]

Erik this is your position as I see it

Prior to your conversion you were spiritually dead. Despite being spiritually dead you sought out God, you repented on your own, and you develop your own faith (conversion) leading to salvation BEFORE God has awakened your spirit. How is this possible? When a person is spiritually dead the things of God are foolishness to them. That is why BigJ et al don't understand things when your try and teach them because they are spiritually dead. Until God gives them spiritual life (awakens them spiritually) they will think that the things you are talking about are foolishness. Just ask BigJ what she thinks of the Trinity and I bet she will tell you that it is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You told me that I am wrong. Give me a chance to show you why I believe the way I do.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Here Jesus is speaking to a group that is following him, yet they do not believe. Jesus then tells then why they don't believe. Can you comment on these verses for me? (then we can move further down into Chapter 6)

Billy we had already discussed that p***age on another thread. You read "election" in these verses and no one can sway you. But Jesus said whoever comes to me, I will never drive away. Jesus said: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." Read the entire chapter 6 of John.The Jews believed that by virtue of their national origin and religious works they were ***ured of a place in the Kingdom. This is not true. Because the Jewish mul***ude had an opportunity to believe in Christ but rejected Him, they were not the beneficiaries of His promise. Those who choose not to believe in Christ will be held responsible for that choice. In verse 64 Jesus said: But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe. It does NOT say he knew from the beginning who wasn't"elected" to be saved.

Billy do you believe the following?

Salvation by Grace Through Faith - God loves man enough, "in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us". Man's salvation / redemption was purchased by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. Christ paid the sin debt for man by his vicarious death. Man's only obligation is to admit his helplessness in his sin nature, repent of his sins, and by faith trust solely in the finished work of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Salvation cannot be earned, it is the "gift of God" brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. ( Eph 2:8, 9; ***us 3:5; John 1:12; 3:14, 10:28, 29; Rom 8:1; Phil 1:6; II Pet 3:9; I John 2:2; I Cor.15: 1 -4; Rev 22:17)

These are the scriptures that conflict with your belief that God choose some for heaven and the remainder for hell.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

But Jesus said whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.

Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people who were followers of him.

According to the following verses why didn't those who were following him believe?

6 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

It does NOT say he knew from the beginning who wasn't"elected" to be saved.

So when other verses in the Bible speak of election from the foundation of the world you don't believe those?

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Erik this is your position as I see it

Prior to your conversion you were spiritually dead. Despite being spiritually dead you sought out God, you repented on your own, and you develop your own faith (conversion) leading to salvation BEFORE God has awakened your spirit. How is this possible? When a person is spiritually dead the things of God are foolishness to them. That is why BigJ et al don't understand things when your try and teach them because they are spiritually dead. Until God gives them spiritual life (awakens them spiritually) they will think that the things you are talking about are foolishness. Just ask BigJ what she thinks of the Trinity and I bet she will tell you that it is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

You keep putting words in my mouth Billy. I did not seek out God. He knocks and calls and when one hears the preaching and is presented the Gospel, one then responds either in acceptance or rejection..Do you believe its foolishness that Jesus says anyone who comes to me I will never drive out? Do you think it foolishness that God wants everyone to repent? Is it foolishness that Christ died for all, not just some. This is what the Scripture teaches.

You act as if its too late for Julie. As long as she is still living its never too late. You are forgetting about prayers and the Holy Spirit. Each seed we plant to the lost can lead to illumination which gets brighter. This is why we must be very careful that we only teach what the Scriptures says.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Salvation by Grace Through Faith - God loves man enough, "in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us".

Yes

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Man's salvation / redemption was purchased by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

Yes

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Christ paid the sin debt for man by his vicarious death.

Yes

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Man's only obligation is to admit his helplessness in his sin nature, repent of his sins, and by faith trust solely in the finished work of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Yes

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Salvation cannot be earned, it is the "gift of God" brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes.

Originally Posted by ErikErik

These are the scriptures that conflict with your belief that God choose some for heaven and the remainder for hell.

How so?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

Do you believe its foolishness that Jesus says anyone who comes to me I will never drive out?

Nope. Anyone who comes to Christ will not be driven out.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

I did not seek out God. He knocks and calls

Bingo. He actively sought you out. And if he actively sought you out he will raise you up on the last day. Good news for you Erik.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You act as if its too late for Julie. As long as she is still living its never too late.

I never once said it was too late. I said that a person who is spiritually dead thinks the things of God are foolishness. When you present clear Christian principles (unlike the ones in the last few pages) she will not understand them and will think they are foolishness, just like I thought the things were foolishness when I was LDS. Until God awakens a person's spirit they just can't see. That is what we have been talking about all along with regeneration. Spiritually dead people can't see or hear the truth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

This is why we must be very careful that we only teach what the Scriptures says.

I agree with you 100%. Does that mean you are coming aboard?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved. (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23, ***us 3:5)

We already looked at John 3. Now lets look at 1 Peter 1:23

1 Peter 1:23 (New American Standard Bible)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

You said "It points to the inward change that occurs in those who are saved."

It says that in this verse? Can you point out where exactly?



Conversion = Faith and repentance = Salvation

Regeneration = Spiritual awakening

When is a person saved? After conversion or after regeneration?

[Billyray]

You also brought up ***us 3:5

***us 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


So God saved us NOT based on our deeds. Don't you think that repentance and placing our faith in Christ is a deed that we have done?

I see this verse as supporting my position not a verse that I would of thought that you would pick out. God save me. I did not save myself based on my own actions.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ErikErik

You act as if its too late for Julie.

I agree Erik it is never too late. But let me give you another example to illustrate my point that those who are spiritually dead can't see the things of God. It is obvious to both of us that in order to be a Christian you need to have faith in Christ. Seems obvious enough right? But BigJ has said that you can be a Christian WITHOUT having faith in Christ. Here is my challenge to you. See if you can convince her of this obvious truth. Use powerful arguments, use the scriptures, use whatever you wish and see how far you get.

[alanmolstad]

The only requirement to be a Christian is to have faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[some1you_know]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

To me born again refers to baptism--when one has been washed clean and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. This occurs when they are taught the gospel and seek for themselves to know the truthfullness of it. Once they have a witness from the Holy Ghost, then they keep the commandment to "repent and be baptized"--once again by choice. Once baptized, they are now "clean" and are prepared to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift starts the "regeneration" process as you call it or the perfecting process. Those who continue on this path are santified.

Do you agree BibleChristian?

Julie- most LDS kids are baptized when they are 8. I am sure there are exceptions, but do you really think most eight year olds are seeking truthfulness for themselves, or are they doing what they think will please their parents and caregivers?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The only requirement to be a Christian is to have faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That's not what Walter Martin said in the video. You left out the rest of it.

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Nope. Anyone who comes to Christ will not be driven out.

No one can come to Christ. God does it all. Is this your view?

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people who were followers of him.

According to the following verses why didn't those who were following him believe?

6 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. ***us 2:11

God's salvation is available to ALL men. Not all men want it. This ****s everything you claim out of the water, doesn't it.

First of all, you don't understand what regeneration is. Its the same as being born again. Now please explain to us how you were born again (regenerated) while you were still lds and a lost sinner and hadn't even confessed nor had faith in the true gospel of Christ? New birth CANNOT precede faith. I agree with Eric that you had some illumination due to hearing the word, through exposure of the Truth which you may have been reading or hearing. God never hardens an open heart. Your heart must have been receptive. Nowhere in the scriptures do we read that God forces anyone to follow him or believe in Jesus Christ. What does the NT say every time someone asks how to be saved? Its always BELIEVE, isn't it. Believe with the heart and confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord. Nowhere do any of the apostles ever say God does it it all. If you are the elect, you're in. If God hasn't chosen you, you're doomed, even if you cry out to Him! That's Calvin's false teaching!

No one is saying the Reformed church is not a christian church. But some of John Calvin's teachings are NOT scriptural. Limited grace or limited atonement is NOT Biblical. His teaching on Predestination is NOT scriptural.

The bible teaches that before the foundation of the world, God elected to save those, and only those, who believe. Thus our election is conditioned upon our faith. Those who believe make up the group of people whom the Bible refers to as the elect or chosen of God. And because God is all knowing, He foreknew those who would believe. We have been, as Peter writes, “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Pet. 1:1-2,). This view is the only one that is consistent with all of Scripture,

As for your p***age in John 6, there is always a crucial point where Christ is believed or rejected. Here, it is His testimony to the Jews as having come from heaven. Today, its the offer of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21-23). The crisis often comes in the acceptance or rejection of the resurrection (Acts 17:32). Whatever the crisis, it must be dealt with for the person to come to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TheSword99

That's not what Walter Martin said in the video. You left out the rest of it.

.

no I didnt

The deal is this:
....as long as you don't change who Christ is...
....as long as you don't change what the resurrection is....
Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

All the rest of the Mormon stuff is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Christ that makes us what we call "christian"


NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

( FYI - When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position on it and pick a side.)

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrection is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what Im saying is that many Mormons, (or all of em perhaps?) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
They love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My response is that all that stuff is just window dressing, if it means a lot to you? fine you can hang onto it if you want....its not important....

All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a true "Christian" or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that is the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different Jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.
That is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Mormons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So I'm not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist (as much other white churches from that same time and place).....its not important.

I'm not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

The only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus Christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if they want to always worship at the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..

The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No I don't think you get it.


No I was regenerated but not converted. If you must you can go back to the chart. It might help you.


I was regenerated but not converted. Salvation occurs after conversion.


Faith is required for salvation at the time of conversion.



Right.


Born again is regeneration.

You know Billy, its always the cults, or those who teach false doctrines that believe only certain people can be saved. The mormons believe only those who believe their gospel will be saved. The same with the JWs. Calvin taught a false doctrine that only those God created for heaven will be saved. The rest are out of luck.

That's not what the Bible teaches. God would love for everyone to be saved. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:16-17) God would love to save the world, but He is not going to force it upon us. It is something we have to choose for ourselves. God wants a relationship with us, but not one where he has to force us into it. Jesus offers us a pardon but He is not going to make us take it.The Bible says that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12) You have to receive it for yourself. So what is it that you have to do in order to be saved, in order to spend eternity with God in heaven? "Behold , I stand at the door, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20) All that we have to do is open our hearts to him and believe that what he did he did for us and that is all that is required.

[TheSword99]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

no I didnt

The deal is this:
....as long as you dont change who Christ is...
....as long as you dont change what the resurrection is....

Then there is no problem with all the other things that the Mormons got added to their religion.

all the rest is just window dressing...(the temple, the handshakes, the undies, the many wives, the BOM etc)...all meaningless in the end.

It is only the resurrection of Jesus Chriust that makes us what we call "christian"


NOTHING ELSE!

There is no other set of things you must believe in to be saved or be called a christian.
There is no other "Good News" that you have to believe in.

When it comes to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, a Christian does NOT have to take a position of it and pick a side.

All you have to do is not screw with the Bible's teaching of who Christ is....and what the resurrectino is, and you will be fine.

The moment you believe in Jesus you are saved.
Its a done deal...
Its a completed journey from death into Life.

The moment you believe in the resurrection you have already p***ed from death to life.
You are as "saved" as you are ever going to get...
You cant get more saved.

The point of what im saying is that many Moromos, (or all of em perhaps) have a lot of family connections and personal affection for many of the things that are different in Mormonism.
The love the songs, they love the friends and family they have in Mormonism, they love the trappings of their church.
My responce is that all that stuff is just window dressing.....its not important....
All that stuff is not concerned with the question of being a christina or not?

All that is important is that the Mormons have changed their ideas about the resurrection of jesus Christ and thats the only real issue with their salvation.

The Mormons teach a different jesus
The Mormons teach a different resurrection.

that is where the problem is....

all the rest of the stuff that separates the Momrons from the Christian is window dressing,,,,,its simple additions that are well within the freedom of the christian church to debate and disagree over...

So Im not interested in the debate over if this or that Mormon leader predicted a date that failed.....its not important.

Im not interested in showing a Mormon that his church used to be as racist as other white -only churches.....its not important.

Im not interested in showing a Mormon that the Book of Mormon has a questionable source....its not important.

the only thing important is that the Mormon church and it's leadership have strayed away from the truth Jesus christ....they have walked away from the only core teaching the christian church has....that being the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So I tell the Mormon that they can continue worshiping where they want I dont care.
I dont care if its the local Mormon church,
the Utah Mormon temple,
outside under a tree,
or underground in a catacomb....thats not important..
The only thing I do care about is "who" they worship....and "what" did that person whom they worship do?

That the Salvation of the Christian is due only to the faith we have in the resurrection of the truth one-and-only Jesus Christ.

Alan, I gave you the rest of what Walter Martin said in the video link you posted earlier. Go back and watch it again. He told us what a true Christian is:

A Christian in the NT is somebody who believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the WORLD. That he was incarnate Deity.That he died on the cross in the place of our sins; that his blood was atonement for our sins; that he rose bodily from the grave and ascended to heaven; and that he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

BTW, what site did you cut and paste from?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by some1you_know

Julie- most LDS kids are baptized when they are 8. I am sure there are exceptions, but do you really think most eight year olds are seeking truthfulness for themselves, or are they doing what they think will please their parents and caregivers?

One of the things we tend to do, is look down at the young and consider their views on everything as being lesser in God's eyes than our own.

We watch children going up to the front of the church to read a verse, or play a part in a Christmas pageant, and we might think to ourselves, "Them kids don't know what they are saying...they cant appreciate the depth of this"

But I hope we try to also always remember that God is a God of the child too....

God is there with that child every day as the child got ready to walk in front of the church.

And when asked by the adults who was the greatest in the kingdom, Jesus took a small child and put that child in the middle of the men he was talking to and said this small child was the example of greatness in the kingdom.

Im a lot older now that I was when I first walked in front of the church doing something with my Sunday school cl***. But is the Love I have for God any more pure and pleasing to God now than it was back then?....I doubt it.