no need to restore the truth

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

no, we don't know what would happen if you actually backed up your ***ertion (that Jesus claimed to be equal with His Father) with a quote of Jesus contradicting what He said in John 14:28

"...I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.”

but if if you did that, i can guess what would happen--we'd probably say 'well done, you supported your ***ertion.'


if you merely backed up your claim with a bible quote, how could we call that bible verse trash, heresy, and false doctrine?

My answer to that is in post #13, read the scriptures it won't take too long.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Your answer is the big list of random scriptures of which you don't understand yourself? The Father and Son are one in the sense that they have the same purpose, not substance. You don't refute the scriptures with scriptures for that is not what they are here for.

Hello Cog,
Even a child could see that these scriptures are not random and the explanation of why they are listed together is apparent.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Col 1:15-17

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" Col 2:9

Also, how did people get saved between 33AD and 1830?

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Cog,
Even a child could see that these scriptures are not random and the explanation of why they are listed together is apparent.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Col 1:15-17

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" Col 2:9

Also, how did people get saved between 33AD and 1830?

You've had three people tell you now that your post was a hodge podge of unrelated verses, taken out context or misinterpreted.

So either we are right and you refuse to admit it; at which point you are wasting everybody's time...
Or you are completely unable to communicate with your target audience; at which point you are wasting everybody's time.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

You've had three people tell you now that your post was a hodge podge of unrelated verses, taken out context or misinterpreted.

So either we are right and you refuse to admit it; at which point you are wasting everybody's time...
Or you are completely unable to communicate with your target audience; at which point you are wasting everybody's time.

Hello Way,

Fine, it is your right to consider my post a waste of time but the listed verses are not my words but scripture and absolutely relate to the deity of Jesus Christ.


"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Way,

Fine, it is your right to consider my post a waste of time but the listed verses are not my words but scripture and absolutely relate to the deity of Jesus Christ.


"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

LOL... you can't even own up to your own mistakes, you instantly blame God.
It just couldn't possibly be you, could it? Instead you blame God and the Holy Ghost for not confirming to us your understanding of His Word.

I have no problem with the verses you posted nor do I see "the message of the cross" as foolishness. You are the one foolishly taking the Lord's name in vain by carelessly posting en m***e his Word, just to hide your own inability to prove your case.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL... you can't even own up to your own mistakes, you instantly blame God.
It just couldn't possibly be you, could it? Instead you blame God and the Holy Ghost for not confirming to us your understanding of His Word.

I have no problem with the verses you posted nor do I see "the message of the cross" as foolishness. You are the one foolishly taking the Lord's name in vain by carelessly posting en m***e his Word, just to hide your own inability to prove your case.

Hello Way,

I can live with your laughter and criticism, although I am dismayed at the depth of your deception. You relegate the Lord Jesus Christ to the position of brother of satan and you accuse me of taking His name in vain?
Incidentally can you tell me how people got saved between 33Ad and 1830?

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Way,

I can live with your laughter and criticism, although I am dismayed at the depth of your deception. You relegate the Lord Jesus Christ to the position of brother of satan and you accuse me of taking His name in vain?

LOL.... what happened to your only wanting to learn about what we believe?
Like I said, you are only here to try and school those who know a lot more than you do, at least own up to who you are and why you are here.

Originally Posted by disciple

Incidentally can you tell me how people got saved between 33Ad and 1830?

Simple.... By obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I.e. Faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, etc.
That is the short version, however even in the long version I see nothing about NOT believing Jesus was a spirit brother of satan in order to be saved??? Where did that requirement come from?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Simple.... By obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I.e. Faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, etc.
That is the short version, however even in the long version I see nothing about NOT believing Jesus was a spirit brother of satan in order to be saved??? Where did that requirement come from?

Ok, so why the need for Joseph Smith and the extra biblical books. All the information you needed about Jesus and salvation resides in the Bible.

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Ok, so why the need for Joseph Smith and the extra biblical books. All the information you needed about Jesus and salvation resides in the Bible.

Why the need for the books of Mark, Luke, and John when you have The book of Matthew detailing the same life span, teachings and salvation requirements of Jesus Christ?

Also, what happens in modern Christianity when you have a question about doctrine written in the Bible?
For example; Is water baptism a requirement of salvation or not?

Answer these questions and you will have your answers.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Why the need for the books of Mark, Luke, and John when you have The book of Matthew detailing the same life span, teachings and salvation requirements of Jesus Christ?

Also, what happens in modern Christianity when you have a question about doctrine written in the Bible?
For example; Is water baptism a requirement of salvation or not?

Answer these questions and you will have your answers.

So do you personally need Joseph Smith and the extra-biblical books for salvation or not?

[alanmolstad]

we question all things, and compare scripture with scripture...
Thats how you find truth...

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we question all things, and compare scripture with scripture...
Thats how you find truth...

No wonder you're lost when it comes to truth and the gospel of Jesus Christ; you are doing the complete opposite of what you show be doing.

First, Christ never said it was OK to "question". To question means you have doubt. Only Satan works with doubt, God never does. If you lack information, then "Ask a question".

Second, comparing scripture with scripture is nonsensical... It's nothing more than circular logic.
Notwithstanding the fact that what you are really saying is that you "compare your interpretation of scripture with your interpretation of scripture"????

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

So do you personally need Joseph Smith and the extra-biblical books for salvation or not?

Quid pro quo, I fairly and honestly answered your questions knowing beforehand that it would amount to nothing... I'm afraid if want me to go any further you will have to answer my questions in post #43 first.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Why the need for the books of Mark, Luke, and John when you have The book of Matthew detailing the same life span, teachings and salvation requirements of Jesus Christ?

Also, what happens in modern Christianity when you have a question about doctrine written in the Bible?
For example; Is water baptism a requirement of salvation or not?

Answer these questions and you will have your answers.

Ok. Why the need for 1&2 Chronicles when we have 1&2 Kings? The scriptures were decided upon by God. The gospel writers each had a specific audience to reach and each writer was guided by the Holy Spirit to give a different perspective on the same portion of the life of Jesus.

Well first of all, doctrine written in the Bible is true so whether modern or not, true followers of Jesus Christ defer to the teaching of the scriptures. Sometimes we don't understand it all but "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2nd Peter1:20-21

Baptism is for believers, it is an act of obedience to a command of Jesus but it is not a requirement for salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Ok. Why the need for 1&2 Chronicles when we have 1&2 Kings? The scriptures were decided upon by God. The gospel writers each had a specific audience to reach and each writer was guided by the Holy Spirit to give a different perspective on the same portion of the life of Jesus.

Well first of all, doctrine written in the Bible is true so whether modern or not, true followers of Jesus Christ defer to the teaching of the scriptures. Sometimes we don't understand it all but "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2nd Peter1:20-21

Baptism is for believers, it is an act of obedience to a command of Jesus but it is not a requirement for salvation.

well said!.......

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Ok. Why the need for 1&2 Chronicles when we have 1&2 Kings? The scriptures were decided upon by God. The gospel writers each had a specific audience to reach and each writer was guided by the Holy Spirit to give a different perspective on the same portion of the life of Jesus.

Then you answered your own question. Any scripture on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ is important and needed for learning and edifying. The Book of Mormon does not say it is a replacement to the Bible, but a second witness to Christ. In fact in several places within the Book of Mormon it refers back to the Books in the Bible as the sole source for certain revelations.

Originally Posted by disciple

Well first of all, doctrine written in the Bible is true so whether modern or not, true followers of Jesus Christ defer to the teaching of the scriptures. Sometimes we don't understand it all but "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2nd Peter1:20-21

Pla***udes and Word Soup... Nothing here answers any questions I asked of you. In fact, I don't even know what your point is???

Originally Posted by disciple

Baptism is for believers, it is an act of obedience to a command of Jesus but it is not a requirement for salvation.

Maybe I wasn't clear, I could care less what your opinion is of water baptism. What I wanted to know is how do you determine which group is right when one group says that baptism is a requirement of salvation, while the other group says that baptism is not a requirement of salvation, yet both use the Bible as the sole doctrinal source?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Explain why Jesus said we CANNOT enter the kingdom of God without baptism.

and the Lord said, "Truly ,truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise, I mean if you can jump off that cross and find some magic water that is....cuz unless you can do that I am helpless to save anyone" ....

[alanmolstad]

edit , slow server today...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

..... Something being omitted from scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen, it may have and just wasn't recorded.

In your full post you raise a few different issues, and rather than lumping my answers into one monster post, (That no one would bother reading anyway) I will keep my answers short and to the post in a few different posts that I hope will be more easy to skim and get the point Im aiming at.



Now in the above clip I took first from your post yopu raise an issue that I have seen Mormons do on this forum from time to time.

You are attempting to use a LACK of supporting verses as a means to support your views.

Its like saying, "Jesus drove a FORD TRUCK, because there is no clear verse in the Bible that says he did not drive a FORD TRUCK"




So in other words according to this "Mormon idea" about how to view things that the Bible does not say, - the lack of a verse teaching that Jesus drove a FORD can be used to actually support the idea that he did drive a truck.


Lets build on that idea:
"Jesus drank Koolaid, because there is no verse in the Bible that teaches he did not drink Koolaid"

Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 feet tall, because there is no verse in the Bible that says she was not 12 feet tall"

"Peter had 3 arms, because there is no verse in the Bible that teaches that Perter did not have 3 arms....after all something being omitted from scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen, it may have and just wasn't recorded."



In a very real way if you fall into this trap/poor way to study the Bible you will have very little in the way of things you cant find a way to believe in, if all you need to support your faith is a "lack" of things to support your faith..... LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Jesus said PARADISE, not the kingdom of God.

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
The body of Christ died and went into the grave, but the spirit of Christ went into the loving hands of the Father.
This is a Fact.
This is what the Bible teaches.
This is what happened.

This also is what happens...

This same thing is what happens to all Christians who have put their faith in the Lord.
You die and your dead body goes into the grave just like the dead body of Christ died a normal death and went into a normal grave.
And when we die while the dead body is like the dead body of Christ and is put under the ground, we also are just like Christ in that our spirit goes to the father.
So that where the father is, that is where we will be.

Call it Paradise...call it heaven...call it the Kingdom or whatever you want, but the key thing to remember about it is that this is the same place where Christ's spirit went to along with the thief on the cross, and its where I will also go to at the moment of my own death too!

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
The body of Christ died and went into the grave, but the spirit of Christ went into the loving hands of the Father.
This is a Fact.
This is what the Bible teaches.
This is what happened.

This also is what happens...

This same thing is what happens to all Christians who have put their faith in the Lord.
You die and your dead body goes into the grave just like the dead body of Christ died a normal death and went into a normal grave.
And when we die while the dead body is like the dead body of Christ and is put under the ground, we also are just like Christ in that our spirit goes to the father.
So that where the father is, that is where we will be.

Call it Paradise...call it heaven...call it the Kingdom or whatever you want, but the key thing to remember about it is that this is the same place where Christ's spirit went to along with the thief on the cross, and its where I will also go to at the moment of my own death too!

No Christ did not go into the loving hands of His Father when He died, that is abundantly clear from the scriptures.
I have no idea where you got that idea?
The Grave, as those during Christ's time understood it,was the temporary abode where the spirit of ALL those who die go, good or bad.
It was also called Hell, Hades, Paradise, Abraham's bosom but never Heaven. The verse would have been just as correctly translated had it read "Today you will be with me in Hell" as it meant the same thing.
Do some research first before you think to school others who know better.
The only difference with Christ is that death could not hold Him because He was not tainted by sin. Yet even then He remained in Hel (the temporary one) for three days before ascended to His Father.

[alanmolstad]

So lets then now review what i have answered so far:

When Jesus died his body went into the grave and his spirit went into paradise ...this is also called being in the "hands" of the father....in other words "Heaven"

When after the resurrection Jesus told Mary that he had no yet ascended this was talking about the body that was now raised from the dead.
the new body had not yet ascended and would not for some 40 days .

So this means that when I die my dead body goes into the grave and my spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord.

Then at the 2nd coming of Christ i return with Christ and rise up in a new body.

In this new body I finally ascend in body form into heaven to meet the Lord in the air.
and where Christ is now, is where I will forever be...

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So lets then now review what i have answered so far:

When Jesus died his body went into the grave and his spirit went into paradise ...this is also called being in the "hands" of the father....in other words "Heaven"

Well so far, all you have shown is that you have answered wrong on several different points.
First, you ***ume that "the grave" only refers to the place where a person's body was placed; this is incorrect. "The Grave" has many different meanings in the Bible. Sheol or Hades is translated as the grave 31 times, yet Shoel or Hades is rendered to mean a place where our spirit goes when we die. It NEVER is meant as the place where the body goes. The place were the body is put when you die is called 'queber' which is sometimes rendered as the grave also.
Likewise paradise can mean heaven, however it can also mean a place in Hades, hell, or Shoel and is also called Abraham's bosom.
PARADISE noun
1.heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
2.an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
3.(often initial capital letter) Eden (def 1).
4.a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
5.a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

The only way to know which is which, and who went where, is by going back to the original context and understanding of the verses. From it we know for a fact that Jesus did not go to Heaven for those three days He was in the grave or hell.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

When after the resurrection Jesus told Mary that he had no yet ascended this was talking about the body that was now raised from the dead.

He meant both the spirit and the body had not yet ascended.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the new body had not yet ascended and would not for some 40 days .

The scriptures do not bare that out. Remember that He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)... Yet later He not only has a problem with people touching Him, yet even invites them to.
If you don't believe that, then at the very least you must admit that it can not be determined by these verses.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So this means that when I die my dead body goes into the grave and my spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord.

Wiseful thinking on your part.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Then at the 2nd coming of Christ i return with Christ and rise up in a new body.

Again, nothing more than wishful thinking. But I wish you all the luck at your salvation lotto spin.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In this new body I finally ascend in body form into heaven to meet the Lord in the air.
and where Christ is now, is where I will forever be...

Wait a minute??? Don't you guys believe that God is everywhere? If true, then it doesn't really matter where you go, does it?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Jesus tells Mary, 3 days later, that he hadn't been to the Father yet..

well.....thats not really what he said...
Lets look and see what Jesus was actually talking about :

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


The thing to remember is that while some versions have the words, "Touch me not" this is an error.
Its an error because in our English it gives us the natural idea that Mary could not even touch the body of Jesus.
I have had to listen to whole sermons based on that error....on and on some guys go with this whole complected reason why Mary was not even allowed to touch Jesus.

All such sermons are based on error...


The truth is that Jesus tells Mary that she cant just hold on to him...and that she should not be afraid that he would suddenly disappear, rather he tells her that even their friends would be also able to see him .

So the idea is that Mary was hugging the stuffing out of Christ, and this is very easy to understand given the context in that he was stone cold dead a few moments ago.

So that is the first issue I wanted to clear up about the risen body of Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Jesus tells Mary, 3 days later, that he hadn't been to the Father yet..

well.....thats not really what he said...
Lets look and see what Jesus was actually talking about :

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


The thing to remember is that while some versions have the words, "Touch me not" this is an error.
Its an error because in our English it gives us the natural idea that Mary could not even touch the body of Jesus.
I have had to listen to whole sermons based on that error....on and on some guys go with this whole complected reason why Mary was not even allowed to touch Jesus.

All such sermons are based on error...


The truth is that Jesus tells Mary that she cant just hold on to him...and that she should not be afraid that he would suddenly disappear, rather he tells her that even their friends would be also able to see him .

So the idea is that Mary was hugging the stuffing out of Christ, and this is very easy to understand given the context in that he was stone cold dead a few moments ago.

So that is the first issue I wanted to clear up about the risen body of Christ.