Religiondumb

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>



I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[Saxon]

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>

Are you saying that if you do not believe OSAS it is a works salvation and therefore no one that believes OSAS is saved??? OSAS does not allow the believer in OSAS to know if they are saved. How many do you know that went back and were declared to have never been saved? They all thought that they were saved. YOU as a believer in OSAS do not and cannot know if you are saved. Are you in a cult??? See your last statement on the quote directly above.

Getting saved is a gift of God and no works are required. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) After you are saved it is a different story, works are required because we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[alanmolstad]

Totally wrong....

Once you are one of the Lord's sheep you are never anothers......never ever.....

[Saxon]

You haven't responded to my statements or questions, just more emotional outbursts. Show me why the scriptures that I posted do not say what they say.

[alanmolstad]

The justification of works is before men.


That is how you know I'm saved..
You judge me by my works.

The justification by faith is before god....

So we are saved by grace though faith...and from this we can tell if we and others are saved by works...

For works do not save nor keep us saved...but works show us if our faith is living in our lives or is dead....

[Saxon]

The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?

Hello Saxon,
Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,
Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?

[Saxon]

Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?

I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.

[alanmolstad]

why does no one post on weekends.....and then posts during the work week when i have no time to respond?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.

Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?
Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.

[Saxon]

Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?

Believing that you have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. I also believe that I have a secure position in eternal life that is in Christ Jesus. I also am not contradicting 1 John 5:13 when it states that you may know that you have eternal life. The contradiction is when you believe in OSAS and you turn back and OSAS believers say that the person was never saved even though the one that turned back knew that they were saved. This is 99% of the verdicts that I hear from OSAS people. OSAS in its logical conclusion does not allow 1 John 5:13 to be true.

Believing in eternal security in the way that you seem to is going against the scripture. There are a mul***ude of p***ages that are in direct opposition to OSAS and scripture does not contradict itself. Ezekiel 18:26, Romans 1:21, Romans 11:20 and 21 and Hebrews 3:12 are all making OSAS an impossible Bible doctrine.

There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death.

About the “Hollywood” people, how do you know that they were never saved? They could have been saved for a time. But you do not believe that is possible. Luke 8:13 does not agree with you.

I agree with you when you say, “Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back”. The problem is never ever God taking salvation back but the problem is us leaving it behind us and wandering off. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Paul did have a problem with his desires and was man enough to admit it. We all are in the same boat as Paul. Go over Paul’s teaching on prayer and repentance. This is how he combats this problem that could have dragged him to hell.


1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.

1 John was written to Christians along with the entire Bible. John said If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If the wages of sin is death, what happens if we ignore 1 John 1:9? Why did Paul feel secure in Jesus Christ?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[disciple]

Hello Saxon,
You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."
Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship. Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it? Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,
You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."

Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship.

Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it?

The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God

Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?

You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.





The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God





You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.

Hi Saxon,
I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon,
I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.

I do not feel that you are against me at all. We are in a disagreement. The only “winners” are those that are in Christ Jesus. I want to discuss what we are engaged in but I am finding it to be one-sided. I believe that I am explaining to you what it is that I believe but you do not seem to want to explain why you do not agree with what I am posting in the form of Bible quotes and questions.

I too believe that I can still learn as I know for sure that I am not a know it all. I have posted why I reject OSAS from scripture, but you do not attempt to explain why I am in error about OSAS. The scripture that I have posted is just a small amount that I believe contradicts OSAS and I get no direct response to my objections. Can you help me see what is supposed to be wrong with what I am saying?

[alanmolstad]

why does no one post on weekends around here?....during the work week Im mostly onthe road and its hard to post on a phone....

[Saxon]

I will be available this weekend starting at 0000 hrs to 1000 hrs Sa****ay then 2200 hrs Sa****ay to 1000 hrs Sunday and 2200 hrs Sunday to 0800 Monday. All times are Atlantic standard. If you can keep up the pace at any of those times I will be there.

[Saxon]

I gave you the times, but you didn't show.

[Saxon]

Ok, Friday evening 1600 to 2400 Sa****ay 1000 to 2200 Sunday 1000 to 2200. All times Atlantic Standard Time. I will be waiting.

[alanmolstad]

[alanmolstad]

[alanmolstad]

and the best example of Walter Martin defending the teaching that we are saved once forever, is found at the 1:28:00 point of this debate video.