Satan and the Mormon Temple "Secret" Rites! Don't Get Involved!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your understanding of the afterlife is not consistent with what the Bible teaches so the only way I can answer your question is that what you believe is false. If you want to define terms then we can go from there.

Wait---I was just asking you guys what YOU believe the Bible says. Between you, Apologette and James, this is what I came away with.

1) There is only one hell fire ****ation.

2) Only the Sons of perdition go there.

3) God will punish some more severely than others.

What I am to believe other than you also believe in the degrees of glory in which God's grace extends to all except the sons of perdition. And that there are those (other than the sons of perdition) who will have a more severe punishment and some who have less severe who will experience God's grace.

From all I read, it appears you all agree with us Mormons regarding the afterlife.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Wait---I was just asking you guys what YOU believe the Bible says.

The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.

Absolutely right!

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I am saying that your church does not have the fullness of the truth ---if you did, I would belong to your church. Do you believe every church has all the truth? What about Catholics?


I disagree that Mormonism is "another gospel"--I believe it is the gospel.

Ummm, God was a man---this is always the most interesting argument to me that a "christian' makes---I mean, do you not think Jesus Christ was a man?

Whenever a "christian' argues that God is a spirit and NOT a man, I think--hey--so you see this clear difference between God the Father and Jesus Christ---but I don't. If Christ was born, had a body, died, resurrected and was exalted and IS God, we can say the exact same thing for the Father---as because Christ teaches us--they are the same.

Julie I knew you would say what you did. Mormons don't get it. You see, God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct individual persons. The Father is a spirit which the Bible says in John 4:24, "God is spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth." Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I, myself; handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have." A spirit does not have flesh and bone so you can plainly see that when Christ was speaking about God the Father, he describes Him as a spirit. Anything else is not Biblical. No one can become a god for that would be blasphemy. It is one of many reasons that Satan was cast out of heaven, due to him saying, "I will make myself like the most high God." The Great I WILLS found in Isaiah tells us all of the sins Satan committed against God. Christ never taught that he and God the Father are the same. The Bible teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are ONE. Jesus is described as God in John 1:1. The Father is described as God in John 20:17, "...touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; to my God, and your God." Acts 5:3-4, "But Peter said, Ananias why has Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this in thine heart thou has not lied unto men, but unto God." So Ananias lied to God (the Holy Ghost). This is three references all showing that there are three persons within the being of God. This is not hard to understand when the Bible teaches so plainly who God is. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to believe it and not over ****yze it.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.

Ahhh, so, unlike James, you do differentiate between what degree of heaven someone will experience (or crown) and what they will experience in hell.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Julie I knew you would say what you did. Mormons don't get it.

Or you don't....

It is always so interesting to me that 'christians' go to such great lengths to explain how Jesus and the Father are NOT alike. Okay.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Ahhh, so, unlike James, you do differentiate between what degree of heaven someone will experience (or crown) and what they will experience in hell.

No Jim and I agree that that there is only one Heaven and one Hell.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No Jim and I agree that that there is only one Heaven and one Hell.

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places. One can be in one or the other, right? And then in those places---God is either harder on your or nicer to you depending on....what?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places.

Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not place their faith in Christ will go to Hell. Thus two distinct places.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places. One can be in one or the other, right? And then in those places---God is either harder on your or nicer to you depending on....what?

So where do you find support for the lds concept of heaven in the Bible--where you can go to heaven yet be eternally separated from God?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not place their faith in Christ will go to Hell. Thus two distinct places.

So, what about the rewards and punishments? What warrants this?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So where do you find support for the lds concept of heaven in the Bible--where you can go to heaven yet be eternally separated from God?

I never said that. Since we see God as a Godhead, everyone who is not a son of perdition will experience God---but you can just think of it as a "crown" or "reward" since you seem to understand that idea.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Or you don't....

It is always so interesting to me that 'christians' go to such great lengths to explain how Jesus and the Father are NOT alike. Okay.

Christians say that God the Father and Christ are the same being....the only difference is that Christ has a body of flesh and bone since he was born to a mortal woman. What is hard for the LDS is that they can't understand that as Christians we believe in ONE God, not three. I am sorry that the scripture verses I gave you were either not read or you just can't understand what Christ and God taught us. It is not that hard to understand the trinity. Consider an egg. It has both a shell a yoke and the white but yet it is one egg. This is how I see the Godhead, three individual persons who rely on each other, do not do anything without the others; they are always together, always ONE. Do go back and read those verses I left for you. God is there waiting to reveal Himself to you, one only needs to be open to Him.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, okay---who exactly does this apply to---who can have God's grace without faith and without repentance? I mean, I believe there is a group that qualifies for this. What group do you believe it is?

No, I don't think I "earn" grace---but I believe God does give qualifications of who he extends his grace to. Don't you agree?

Still ignoring the other question I can see. Oh well.

Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him. What do you say are these qualifications? I know only of what the Bible teaches. You have read I am sure numerous times, John 3:16, "For GOD so LOVED the world that HE gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him shall have EVERLASTING life." It is so simple the gospel of Christ, and so beautiful. To know that God loved us so much he sent his son (Christ) to die for us. Christ taking our place on the cross, a place that we deserved, not him. Christ who lived a sinless life, and you and I who could never live a sinless life no matter how hard we tried; but God loved us that much in spite of our sinful lives he condemned his beloved son to take our place. That is amazing to me. I praise God daily for his grace and love.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him. What do you say are these qualifications? I know only of what the Bible teaches. You have read I am sure numerous times, John 3:16, "For GOD so LOVED the world that HE gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him shall have EVERLASTING life." It is so simple the gospel of Christ, and so beautiful. To know that God loved us so much he sent his son (Christ) to die for us. Christ taking our place on the cross, a place that we deserved, not him. Christ who lived a sinless life, and you and I who could never live a sinless life no matter how hard we tried; but God loved us that much in spite of our sinful lives he condemned his beloved son to take our place. That is amazing to me. I praise God daily for his grace and love.

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse.

[theway]

Originally Posted by neverending

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse.

OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

[neverending]

Originally Posted by theway

OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

I think we know that the "little children" that Christ loved and mentioned within those scripture verses were very young. What consti tutes a child? A little one who hasn't the understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Normally, a child learns this very soon when mom scolds them for misbehaving.
It says in Matthew, "And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea(Matthew 18:2-6).
I think we know that in children before they become truly aware of the evils of this world are honest, and humble; they don't know anything else. This is what consti tutes a child...an innocent, honest, humble child who hasn't become defiled by the world. Since the Bible doesn't come right out and say what the age is for a child, then this is my opinion and it makes total sense. A child is sweet and innocent not knowing yet from right and wrong. Like Adam and Eve before they ate of the fruit, not knowing evil and trusting everything.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by theway

OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse.

Okay, so when you said:

Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him.

You didn't mean small children and babies. And what about those who have never heard of Christ...lets say, someone who lived in the Alaskan area before Christ was born and was not of the house of Israel? Do they have to have faith in Christ too? How do they do this if they never learned of him?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

Did you not read my post....I will repeat the important verse again. "Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The Bible doesn't teach about outer darkness Julie. It teaches the Lake of Fire. Sons of perdition will find their place there along with all the many who never believed in Jesus Christ or repented of their sins. You are caught up with a word, "greater". IS there anything "greater" then God's punishment? What could be worse, what could be, "greater" then to be punished by God? That is the "greater" punishment. Is there anything "greater" then being thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Julie, crowns are the reward which believers will be given but will then cast at Jesus' feet; we don't keep them for only Jesus is worthy of them. Do you not realize that God makes the differences, makes all the final judgments?

[James Banta]

This post is getting to long to include your statements with it you have to go back on your own to see the questions you bring up.

Great so cheating the poor, saying long prayers to show other how holy you are is a sin that deserves greater ****ation.. That would mean these sins are worse than murder, worse than denying the Holy Spirit.. Come on Julie how do you believe that stealing and hippocracy are more serious than murder and adultery.. That the punishment He metes out for stealing and hippocracy is the greater ****ation? Greater than any ****ation God punishes sin?

Again show me why stealing and hippocracy are more serious than murder and adultery, to deserve a Greater ****ation..

I am dumb, Julie you will have to show me just where we started speaking of Paul.. I remember only bringing up James 2:10,19. I don't believe they conflict either. It is perfectly fine to do good works with, or without believing that committing adultery is equally evil before God as lying.. You disbelieve me is my ***ertion that is true then contend the stealing from the poor and giving prayers that show hippocracy are worthy of some greater ****ation any any other sin against God.. I always thought that denial of the Holy Spirit was the only sin that can be committed that had no repentance.. Your interpretation of the verse seems to be out of sync with your own doctrine of the seriousness of sin much less mine that see all sin as deserving that Greater ****ation..

So if all sin deserves that greater ****ation what excuse am I making to murder? What excuse am I making to lying, or stealing from the poor, or hippocracy.. Seems that is what you are doing saying; that God will not judge all sin the same..

Jesus is our sacrifice for sin.. He was judged by God one way, that was with death.. The wages of sin is death.. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE SIN IS, THE WAGES ARE THE SAME. DEATH! That is both Physical and spiritual death. That is the GREATER ****ATION!

The fact that I say that God's unaltered truth is preserved in the Bible without error you find funny.. Since there is no way to show you what isn't there alteration I require that you show me where there is such an alteration.. You say "I see that there are definitely human flaws going on" so point them out.. I have asked others to do this and they come up with differences in the text that in no way change the meaning of the message.. Therefore God's message of His love, His salvation is there unaltered. He said Abraham was counted as righteous before him, not because of his obedience but by his faith.. Jesus tell us that in John 3:16 saying that who ever believes in Him shall have eternal life. Later through the Holy Spirit we are taught in the writings of Paul we are saved by God's GRACE through FAITH and NOT OF WORKS.. It all agrees..

So when James teaches that if we offend God's Law even in ine point we are guilty of all we must either agree to claim God a liar.. For you tell me that murder and adultery are much worse a sin before God than mere hippocracy, or stealing. But then you tell me that such sins as those deserve a greater ****ation.. Greater than what Julie? Greater than the ****ation a murderer deserves? Or greater than anything man can give?

What is lessor about eternal spiritual death in the Lake of Fire? And yet that is the promise given to Murderers, Adulterers, the Unbelieving, the fearful, and all liars.. How can these all be humped together and not receive the punishment, the ONLY punishment listed in the p***age (Rev 21:8) is the Lake of Fire, the second Death! So what is the Greater punishment.. It is God's punishment.. If you need a lessor one then use man's punishment.. All men can do is kill the body, God can destroy the soul in the Lake of Fire.. All God's punishment are identical.. That is His final judgements. in This life everyone is punished differently. Some receive physical death, others are locked away in a prison, some are fined.. Some lose their ***s, their homes, even their families.. But the finally judgment, the judgment of God is only the Lake of Fire..

Since the Lake of Fire in the last estate of the wicked what does it matter what is before it? Since nothing else is eternal punishment, not even hell which is also cast into the Lake of Fire, nothing else is ****ation.. ****ation is to be stopped, a condition of always remaining is a state.. His Greater ****ation is to always remain ****ed in the Lake of Fire.. God's ****ation of the evil is then the Greater ****ation. And if you need a lessor ****ation let that be the ****ation pronounced be men be the lessor..

No because I don't believe any sin is more serious to God than any other.. There is but one punishment that is DEATH.. There is only one sin that receives that punishment that is REBELLION against God.. Sin ans only Sin.. You see this as a contradiction to Luke 20:47..What I am saying is that it is NOT.. That all sin is punished with the greater ****ation.. Anything else will not allow the whole of the Bible to be true. You have determined to use this p***age to try to prove me wrong and if you were right then those who "devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers" are the worst of sinners because they receive the greater ****ation. That would mean greater than murderers, adulterers, sorcerers, and idolaters. Is that your new doctrine that stealing from widows and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins. That deserving a greater ****ation, greater than all other sinners.. Your theology here is strained don't you think?

Not at all I think you goof not agreeing with Him that it is so, and that all any sin we commit makes of guilty of all.. So that stealing from little old ladies, and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins. That is what you believe.. Or is stealing from little old ladies, and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins along with all other disobedience to God? If it is the second choice then James 2:10 and Luke 20:47 can both be true.. If not then all that can be true is Luke 20:47.. I say both are, you say only one.. Who is believing God's word and who is denying Him?

I have answered this well enough.. The greater ****ation comes to ALL who are ****ed by God.. PERIOD..

Even by your own standard of the seriousness of sin you can't tell me you believe that "pretending to be righteous" deserves a greater ****ation than all other sin.. That a murderer should receive a lessor ****ation? Doesn't it make more sense even to the LDS that being a hippocratic is less of a crime that being a murderer, and therefore the murderer deserves a greater ****ation than the hippocratic? But Jesus didn't say that did He? No He said that the hippocratic would receive a greater ****ation.. In short in breaking the Law of God they became guilty of all and deserved that greater ****ation just like the murderer..

I don't even believe that you see this the same way other LDS do.. That stealing from old women and saying long prayers makes one worthy of receiving a greater ****ation than that of even murderers? To most the punishment fits the crime.. To me all crime against God make them totally guilty of all the possible crimes against God. To most LDS murder is second only to the denial of the Holy Spirit in seriousness.. To you it's stealing from widows and saying long prayers..

Not at all.. I am saying that these deserve the greater ****ation.. He was speaking to just that crime at the time but all rebellion against God could have been included.. He didn't make a error, he didn't misspeak. I say that all the scripture is God's word James 2:10 included.. It all have to fit together as one message to us from God.. When you have to drop any part of it to make your interpretation work then that interpretation is wrong.. That is where you find yourself.. You have to deny James 2:10 to make your interpretation of Luke 20:47 work.. I haven't done that..

Sorry but all that God Does is Greater than all things.. That goes for the ****ation He pronounces..

You could say that if you could just understand that murdering isn't the same as your white lying. It's the other way around.. That little white lie is as serious as murder.. The list of sins? The ten commandments? Which of them is more serious than the others? Jesus tell is the greatest commandment is to love God and the second is just like it to love our neighbor.. He said in those two commands is all the Law and the prophets.. It cam be shown that stealing from widow is included in that, so is murdering the widow. It could be shown that being a hippocratic is included in that, so is worshiping an idol. Breaking of either of these commandments given to us by Jesus makes us guilty of the whole law. That will bring us to the greater ****ation!

That is a shame because your explanation requires part of the Bible to be a lie, mine doesn't.. You MUST exclude James 2:10 as being God's truth, I don't have to exclude Luke 20:47.

You are always changing this from God's perspective to your own.. God's perspective is that if you offend His law in one point you are guilty of all of it.. Your perspective is "if someone committed a sin against ME that hurt ME".. Here is a flash for you Julie God isn't there for you, you are here for Him.. James 2 isn't an excuse for sin it is instead to show us how serious sin is.. Jesus didn't goof, He didn't make a mistake.. Such as those who better, that hurt other or are hippocrates, they all receive the same greater ****ation as does any unforgiven sinner.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

What about them?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

Anyone, such as Mormons here, who reject the Biblical Christ (as you willfully do), and continues in unbelief, will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus has never known you.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Anyone, such as Mormons here, who reject the Biblical Christ (as you willfully do), and continues in unbelief, will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus has never known you.

Oh my---I ask you a question based on the stated beliefs here by many "Christians" and your only reply is that I (and those like me) are going to hell. Wow, nothing but judgment. Okay.