Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ?

I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.

Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."

So, to you, when you read that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotton of the Father--your response seems to be "but not really."

So, then why did Mary need to be overcome by the Holy Ghost--why not just produce a body the way Adam was produced or just the regular way a baby was produced and then implant in that body the spirit of God? And then why say "the only begotten" if it really wasn't the "begotten" Son of God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."

Personal commentaries do not supplant the scriptures--what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with--as it relates to "this day have I begotten thee?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with

That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?

Jesus Christ was a Son before He came to earth--in the Spirit--as we all are as spirits.

That Jesus confirmed:

St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

God the Father is the Father and God of spirits.

That Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten" Son is reference to the earthly fleshly child of His mother Mary and His Father God the Father.

He was the only One ever born to this earth that had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father.

That distinguishes Jesus Christ as the "Only Begotten". If the disciples shared the same God and Father as Jesus Christ did--that is not a unique situation, and applies only to the spirit. The "Only Begotten" applies only to the flesh.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Jesus Christ was a Son before He came to earth--in the Spirit--as we all are as spirits.

Of course he was. But I was addressing your comment below.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with

That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten" Son is reference to the earthly fleshly child of His mother Mary and His Father God the Father.

Which verse are you using for "only begotten"?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which verse are you using for "only begotten"?

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Compare to:

Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

(Keep in mind, that Abraham also had Ishmael---and if you read this in account in the OT which this refers to in Hebrew, it says his son (which means begotten), his only (which means the child of the covenant.) In others, his "only" is a separate phrase.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:9 (from Net Bible page)

NET 4:9 By this 1 the love of God is revealed in us: that God has sent his one and only Son into the world so that we may live through him.

NIV 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

NASB4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

ESV 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

NLT 4:9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.

BBE 4:9 And the love of God was made clear to us when he sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.

NRSV 4:9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him.

KJV 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Not all versions translated it "only begotten" son.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 John 4:9 (from Net Bible page)

NET 4:9 By this 1 the love of God is revealed in us: that God has sent his one and only Son into the world so that we may live through him.

NIV 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

NASB4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

ESV 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

NLT 4:9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.

BBE 4:9 And the love of God was made clear to us when he sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.

NRSV 4:9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him.

KJV 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Not all versions translated it "only begotten" son.

Yes, I realize that, which is why I pointed you to Abraham in which "only begotten" is used for Isaac even though Ishmael was also Abraham's begotten son and explained to you that the term "only" does not mean a single child---but rather the child of the covenant. In that case--Christ could be just like Adam or anyone else created by God and is considered the child of the covenant alone and not begotten. Is that what you believe?

If you read the account of Isaac in the OT in Hebrew, it phrases "only" and "begotten" in two separate phrases...so it would be said -- "your son (which means begotten), your only (which means the child of the covenant.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I realize that, which is why I pointed you to Abraham in which "only begotten" is used for Isaac even though Ishmael was also Abraham's begotten son and explained to you that the term "only" does not mean a single child---but rather the child of the covenant.

And you also believe that only may not mean only because you were also begotten by your father.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And you also believe that only may not mean only because you were also begotten by your father.

No, that is why I said I disagree, because in the NT, the term "only begotten" means, the child of the covenant who is begotten of the father, refering to his physical body. Which is why in the Bible, we have the term "sons of God" and the terms "begotten Son" of God---noting the difference. The term "only" then denotes that Christ is not only the alone begotten of the father but also the child of the covenant.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Which is why in the Bible, we have the term "sons of God" and the terms "begotten Son" of God---noting the difference.

Both are begotten by the father--which of course you believe. Right?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Both are begotten by the father--which of course you believe. Right?

No, not right---"sons of God" are begotten by their earthly parents and refers to those born on earth and Christ being "begotten" of the Father refers to the fact that His Father is God the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, that is why I said I disagree, because in the NT, the term "only begotten" means,

But not all versions use the term "only begotten" rather they use one and only.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But not all versions use the term "only begotten" rather they use one and only.

So, are you saying that you don't believe that Christ "begotten" of the Father and that God the Father is not really His Father?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, are you saying that you don't believe that Christ "begotten" of the Father and that God the Father is not really His Father?

The Father and Son have eternally been Father and Son. The Father did not procreate the Son by sex with Mary like the LDS teach.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Father and Son have eternally been Father and Son. The Father did not procreate the Son by sex with Mary like the LDS teach.

So, what are you saying---that after everything I have told you regarding my beliefs, you are going to rely on your salacious smearing of my beliefs? But I guess by your comments, you think sex is bad or naughty or disgusting and so you have to project that untrue belief onto me. *sigh*

Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html

For the letter, you can go to the website.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, what are you saying---that after everything I have told you regarding my beliefs, you are going to rely on your salacious smearing of my beliefs?

Why is stating the facts a "salacious smearing of my beliefs"?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why is stating the facts a "salacious smearing of my beliefs"?

I will repeat.

Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I will repeat.

That is what I believed as an LDS member and that is what some of your leaders taught. But since every LDS has different beliefs then I believe you that you do not believe sex was involved.

So how is your concept of how Mary became pregnant different than mine?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is what I believed as an LDS member and that is what some of your leaders taught. But since every LDS has different beliefs then I believe you that you do not believe sex was involved.

So how is your concept of how Mary became pregnant different than mine?

I will repeat:

Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html

My version is different because you seem to think that "begotten" of the Father is just a poetic term and that Jesus Christ is not really the Son of God the Father.

You seem to be caught up in how he could be the Son of God rather than acknowledging that He is the Son of God. I say, it doesn't matter how---all we know is that Mary was overcome by the Holy Ghost--other than that, we know nothing concerning HOW, but we do know that HE IS the Son of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I will repeat.

You pushed it so lets look at quotes from your leaders.

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Can you tell me what this statement means?