Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The LDS Church today considers that a "mystery".

But that is not what LDS believe in the past as evidenced by many upper level LDS leaders. Why do you think that the leaders got it wrong?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is not what LDS believe in the past as evidenced by many upper level LDS leaders. Why do you think that the leaders got it wrong?

Because they're human.

Why do you suppose the Pope and many other Christian leaders of that era, were so wrong about torturing and murdering, supposed, heretics (in the name of Jesus Christ). They were the mainstream Christians of their time (the "inspired ones")...how could they have been so wrong?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because they're human.

They why trust anything that they say?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They why trust anything that they say?

I don't, particularly, not unless I can confirm it, myself.

The Bible was also written by fallible humans. Why do you believe everything that is written there?

It's all a matter of faith, Billy. LDS believe Joseph Smith was sent by God. You believe the prophets in the O.T. were sent by God. You can't really prove that, anymore than LDS can prove JS. You can really only "prove it" to yourself, by means of the Spirit or whatever you have faith in.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Bible was also written by fallible humans. Why do you believe everything that is written there?

Because it is God's words to us.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because it is God's words to us.

How do you know?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't, particularly, not unless I can confirm it, myself.

Since LDS have prophets what prophecies have you confirmed?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since LDS have prophets what prophecies have you confirmed?

None. But, I do believe some of the general teachings are correct. One example...I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe it, but generally speaking, I'd call that a "hit".

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

None. But, I do believe some of the general teachings are correct. One example...I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe it, but generally speaking, I'd call that a "hit".

Libby,
There is nothing within the Biblical scriptures that can prove we lived a pre-existant life. How can you believe in such a doctrine?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I am convinced that our souls are eternal and we did "pre-exist"...not exactly as LDS believe. . .

So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you have co-existed with God forever and that God did not create you?

How about you answer my other question first. How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?

Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because of the eye witness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and through a spiritual witness. However we don't have the original m****cripts but rather we have copies of copies and thus we have variant readings within the NT m****cripts.

So, you were convinced, primarily, based on your intellect? Just the facts (as you perceive them)? How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

Btw, I'm not saying it isn't. Just asking..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

How do you know that the evidence in that book is reliable? How do you know the information is true? It's all second and third hand information.

Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Two reasons

1. The NT is eyewitness testimony from multiple witnesses.

2. Spiritual confirmation.

Okay. The spiritual confirmation was what I was looking for. Wouldn't you consider that the more important of the two?

I would, personally, put that first.

LDS claim eyewitness testimony of the Book of Mormon, as well. Plus, the very important spiritual confirmation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay. The spiritual confirmation was what I was looking for. Wouldn't you consider that the more important of the two?

I would, personally, put that first.

No I think both are important.

Originally Posted by Libby

LDS claim eyewitness testimony of the Book of Mormon, as well. Plus, the very important spiritual confirmation.

But their is no evidence in the Americas that support the history of the Book of Mormon. This is a major difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

[Libby]

But their is no evidence in the Americas that support the history of the Book of Mormon. This is a major difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

That doesn't make the book untrue. It just makes it lacking in evidence. (Not to say I believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, but lack of evidence doesn't automatically make a claim untrue). LDS claim a spiritual witness of this book, just as you claim a spiritual witness of the Bible.

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

That doesn't make the book untrue. It just makes it lacking in evidence. (Not to say I believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, but lack of evidence doesn't automatically make a claim untrue). LDS claim a spiritual witness of this book, just as you claim a spiritual witness of the Bible.

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

Libby,
Then I guess you had best not read anything in the Bible nor the BoM since you haven't a clue as to whether these books are from God. I do trust that when Christ said, that HIS WORD WOULD NEVER P*** AWAY, (Luke 21:33) that we could believe it, trust it, for God does not LIE! JS LIED all the time but you know, believe what you want but only God will make the final decision as to where He wants you to spend eternity.

[Decalogue]

Originally Posted by Libby

There are many claims in the Bible that have no supporting evidence and yet you claim to believe every word is from God.

... aanndd there it is folks ,,, the Standard Mormon L.D.S. fall back ( line of defence ) . When confronted with facts that show the S.L.C. - based Religion is built on sand and fog --- the mormon answer is to bring forward doubts and criticisms of the very written words of God , The Creator ... as we thankfully have recorded in The Holy Bible.

This is exactly what the serpent did in the garden when chit-chating with Eve--- Question the Words of God our Maker. Planting seeds of doubt.

Before you put your head on your pillow Libby , you need to drop on the floor face down and start begging The Redeemer to forgive you of your sins , and your insults of HIS written words , that He gave to us.

IF you were a Christian ( and so also , Mitt Romney , btw ) you would believe the Bible is Inspired by God The Holy Ghost { see 2 Tim. 3:16 } !

If you were a Christian , you would not have anything to do with a group which casts doubts on the veracity of the God-breathed Scriptures { Genesis to Revelation - 66 Books in one Bible , Amen! }, and yet that group , which calls into question the Real Scriptures ... fully accepts the BoM , P.G.P. , D. & C. .

-------- ----------- ------------ -----------

Your screen address says you are in Southern California. You have NO reason to be horn-swaggled into buying the claims of the self-anointed / self-proclaimed "prophet & President , Joseph Smith. There are answers if you do some looking.

In the City of Orange there is an "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" Visitor Center. Go ask questions , and read the lit. , and tracts and examine. To quote from the front page of the California Penal Code : "Ignorance of the law , is NOT an excuse for violations thereof.". Get and read "The Maze of Mormonsism" by Walter Martin .

If you want to know what good Reformed , Protestant , Christians actually teach , then you have several good options in the So. Cal. area. Visit Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada , or The R.B.C. in Centinela / Lawndale , or Sovereign Baptist Church in Ontario { and listen to Pastor Steve Marquedant , and Jeff M***ey on Sermon Audio dot com }, or Riverside Reformed Baptist Church , or Escondido Reformed Baptist Church , or Grace Community Church in Panorama City , and/or listen the a radio program on KKLA-FM ***led "The White Horse Inn" , or visit "The House of Bibles in Fullerton , and look in their Theology section. Great books and not one of them would proclaim Calvin ( or Luther , or Wesley ) a "Prophet".

I have the "Ins***utes of the Christian Religion" and it is full of good spiritual food , and little gold nuggets of "thoughts' , but it is not inspired , nor was Calvin. I say again ---> Those 3 gents gents delivered many sermons and wrote and lectured , but they never wanted people to follow them , but to follow The Saviour , The Lord Jesus Christ.

In Mormonism --- in order to get to the top level of the celestial heaven ,,, a person must confess that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet-of-God".

In Biblical Christianity the focus is on The Lord Jesus Christ. Turn to Acts chapter 16 : read verses 30,31. Not one word there about beleiving in a "prophet".

Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they pointed people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

Libby --- Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

... aanndd there it it is folks ,,, the Standard Mormon L.D.S. fall back ( line of defence ) . When confronted with facts that show the S.L.C. - based Religion is built on sand and fog --- the mormon answer is to bring forward doubts and criticisms of The Word of God The Creator ... The Holy Bible.

This is exactly what the serpent did in the garden when chit-chating with Eve--- Question the Words of God our Maker.

Before you put your head on your pillow Libby , you need to drop on the floor face down and start begging The Redeemer to forgive you of your sins , and your insults of HIS written words , that He gave to us.

IF you were a Christian ( and so also , Mitt Romney , btw ) you would believe the Bible is Inspired by God The Holy Ghost { see 2 Tim. 3:16 } !

If you were a Christian , you would not have anything to do with a group which casts doubts on the veracity of the God-breathed Scriptures { Genesis to Revelation - 66 Books in one Bible , Amen! }, and yet that group , which calls into question the Real Scriptures ... fully accepts the BoM , P.G.P. , D. & C. .

-------- ----------- ------------ -----------

Your screen address says you are in Southern California. You have NO reason to be horn-swaggled into buying the claims of the self-anointed / self-proclaimed "prophet & President , Joseph Smith. There are answers if you do some looking.

In the City of Orange there is an "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" Visitor Center. Go ask questions , and read the lit. , and tracts and examine. To quote from the front page of the California Penal Code : "Ignorance of the law , is NOT an excuse for violations thereof.". Get and read "The maze of Mormosism" by Walter Martin .

If you want to know what good Reformed Protestant Christians actually teach , then you have several good options in the So. Cal.. Visit Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada , or The R.B.C. in Lawndale , or Sovereign Baptist Church in Ontario { and listen to Pastor Steve Marquedant , and Jeff M***ey on Sermon Audio dot com }, or Riverside Reformed Baptist Church , or Escondido Reformed Baptist Church , and/or listen the a radio program on KKLA-FM ***led "The White Horse Inn" , or visit "The House of Bibles in Fullerton , and look in their Theology section. Great books and not one of them would proclaim Calvin ( or Luther , or Wesley ) a "Prophet". I have the "Ins***utes of the Christian Religion" and it is full of good spiritual food , and little gold nuggets of "thoughts' , but it is not inspired , nor was Calvin.

In Mormonism --- in order to get to the top level of the celestial heaven ,,, a person must confess that Joseph Smith is a "Prophet-of-God".

Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they point people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

Libby --- Choose this day whom ye shall serve !

And, here is the standard critics' response. Don't you dare question my Holy book, in the same way I question yours. That double standard in operation, again.

I know very well what Calvinists teach, Decalogue (did you not read all of my post?) and I reject most of it. I don't believe in a God who picks and chooses whom he will "save". I believe in a God who displays love & mercy towards all of his children.

I know about Ex-Mormons for Jesus. I get their newsletter (or did). I recently took myself off of their mailing list. Some nice people there, but I have moved on.

If you will take the time to notice, I did not make any truth claims about the Book of Mormon, whatsoever. I simply said, lack of evidence doesn't automatically make it untrue. That is a fact.

Please don't presume to lecture me about whom I should serve. I serve God and the truth.

[Libby]

Whereas , Calvin and Luther and Wesley ,,, rather than point to themselves --- they point people to : " Look unto Jesus " ! Calvin and Luther and Wesley will be bowing at the Throne of God Almighty and singing songs and hymns for ages to come , while the self-appointed "prophet" Joseph Smith will be weeping and gnashing his teeth in eternal flames.

Who gave you the authority to p*** final judgment on anyone?? Certainly, not the Savior. Final judgment is God's, alone.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Libby

Who gave you the authority to p*** final judgment on anyone?? Certainly, not the Savior. Final judgment is God's, alone.

These things are said because they are TRUE! History has shown us the kind of man JS was....a necromancer, wife stealer which made him an adulterer, vandal when he and a mob broke into the Expositor newspaper office and destroyed it by breaking the type and worst of all, traitor to this great country by calling out for Mormons to join his militia and fight againt the State of Missouri; the LEGAL State Militia. Are these signs of a godly man, a prophet of God?? No, he never lived any kind of life worthy to call himself a prophet. His prophesies failed, so he was a FALSE PROPHET! If even on prophesy didn't come to p***, then that man should not be listened to. These are the many issues that we as Christians here have tried and tried to show the LDS that they follow an ungodly man, a self-proclaimed prophet. It was all a scam, for he learned much from his father who also was a great con artist, lying to neighbors and searching for buried treasure he told these neighbors was there on their properties but we know nothing was EVER found.
Matt. 7:16, "You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" JS's fruits were rotten!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Matt. 7:16, "You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" JS's fruits were rotten!

While you go through your list of what you think Joseph Smith or what his life was---anyone can take a look at the church today, the people that adhere to its principles and what it stands for. To me, it represents a people who are devoted to God and thereby doing good, famly oriented as well as believing in hard work and kindness. That is my experience. Those are the fruits of the life of Joseph Smith I witness.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

While you go through your list of what you think Joseph Smith or what his life was--

Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

I'll tell you what, you can stay focused on the trash you think you have dug up from the past and I will continue to look at the fruit of today and what is happening today in the church.