Faith vs Works for Salvation

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

***us 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"



http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"



http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html


What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anythinsalvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

T i t u s 3
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we can judge only by looking at the works of people and our own...this is because only God can see the heart...only God sees the true faith of any of us.

Haven't I showed you that works can be seen in many people that deny Jesus completely and totally? Again I point to the Gates Foundation. They do many wonderful works, do their are in the name of humanity not Jesus. You want to tell me that we see if a person is in Christ by their works and but I say that works are dead without a profession of faith.. If a person is doing good works, as Bill Gates does in the name of the false God of humanity, is that different than doing good works in the name of any other false God? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Seems like a lot of people would rather look at a person's beliefs. Personally, I don't think that's a very good indicator. We all, undoubtedly, hold some wrong beliefs. Doesn't mean we cannot have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

How can anyone have a relationship with God if they deny Him? We can have such a relationship with the God that revealed Himself as being One, or we can invent a god with whom to have a relationship. Mormonism has chosen to invent a god and deny the God that spoke to the prophets and revealed Himself. Their founder, their prophet has demanded that there are three Gods. They have yet to deny that teaching.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I have asked you several times and I am NOT getting an answer.. Here I go again.. DO YOU OBEY HIM? WE ARE commanded TO BE PERFECT AS THE FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT. Are you obedient? Remember the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaches that if we say we have no sin the truth in not in us.. But if we ever sin we can't be perfect as the Father is perfect. We sin, He never has.. So how else can we meet that commandment short of being imputed with the righteousness of Jesus, and that by faith in Him? There is no other way! IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I don't believe salvation is either by faith or by works. I believe it is by God's grace--which the scriptures show goes to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have asked you several times and I am NOT getting an answer.. Here I go again.. DO YOU OBEY HIM?

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?

I will be happy to answer you if you will answer me first, after all I have been asking this question for years.. After you answer I will answer your question, again. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And I have asked you several times in return--what effect do you believe whether I obey or not--has on the truthfulness of the scriptures?

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with you about being saved by grace.....through faith.

All of those who "obey him" have faith or they wouldn't obey him. So, it is "by grace through faith" that obedience comes. Obedience is the "fruit"...but the "work" has nothing to do with salvation. It is the fruits of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is truth Libby.. Salvation is by grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS. By making anything obedience a requirement for God's grace these teachers of mormonism have proven that they are teaching another gospel and not the Gospel once receive by the Church from the Apostles.. By the authority of the scripture these are accursed of GOD (Gal 1:8-9), May they repent of this great sin and come to the peace that is in Christ Jesus.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His. I accept that fact do you accept verse 10 as God's truth? Even if you keep the whole law except for one small point that you are guilty of breaking the whole law? It is in that same context after all.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is truth Libby.. Salvation is by grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS. By making anything obedience a requirement for God's grace these teachers of mormonism have proven that they are teaching another gospel and not the Gospel once receive by the Church from the Apostles..

That is absolutely true Jim. DB on the one hand claims salvation/exaltation is based on obedience to the commandments. Yet he still sins--along with every other lds member including his own prophet. By his own standard not a single lds member will be exalted.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I will be happy to answer you if you will answer me first, after all I have been asking this question for years.. After you answer I will answer your question, again. IHS jim

I have to believe that if you were really obedient to all God's commandments that the Bible would be shown as a total fraud.. The Bible teaches that "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). If that is true then there are times when you are NOT OBEDIENT.. The Bible teaches that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) If you say that you have kept all God's commandments you are deceiving yourself or the Bible is a lie.. Which is the most trustful you memory about the extent of your sin, or the word of God proclaiming your failure to the world? That answers your question. Now will you answer me? I have serious doubts that you will ever face the truth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is absolutely true Jim. DB on the one hand claims salvation/exaltation is based on obedience to the commandments. Yet he still sins--along with every other lds member including his own prophet. By his own standard not a single lds member will be exalted.

THEY CAN'T even MAKE IT TO THE lowest division of their celestial kingdom.. Because of the teachings of Apostle James that they are so fond of quoting, by committing one sin they are guilty of breaking all of God's law (James 2:10).. So like us, they are guilty of murder, adultery, having other gods before Him, disrespecting parents, coveting, and all the other over 600 commandments God gave us in just the OT, and the over 1,000 commandments given in the NT. Most of this is unconfessed, and unrepented. Since no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God 100% of them will be ****ed to the telestial kingdom. Down with murderers and thieves and defilers for that is what the Lord in His word says we all are.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


If it is after--then we are saved by faith other than dead faith.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---I agree with that p***age. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Why should I bother giving you verses that you have not even read?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Why should I bother giving you verses that you have not even read?

That only begs the question--is that dead faith you are referring to?


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That only begs the question--is that dead faith you are referring to?

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--is that faith referred to in Ephesians 2 ---dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

Why would God save us by a dead faith? Yet the p***age says clearly that we are saved by God's grace though Faith and NOT OF WORKS!. Then in verse 10 we are taught that after that salvation is given we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, the works which God has preordained to call us to.. So such a faith that walks in these ways God has chosen for salvation to come to us, is salvation though a dead faith? You need to reexamine your definition of what dead faith is according to James 2.. Is baptism listed in the p***age as part of the works James is looking for to identify a faith that works? Faith is the key that opens God grace. I agree that is must be a living faith.. But I will tell you right now that any work done to bring one to salvation is a boasting work.. And a boasting work has had it's reward:

Matthew 2:6
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

With that p***age maybe you can see there can be dead faith as there can be dead works.. By calling saving faith, a faith that accesses the grace of God, dead, you are opening yourself up to having your works seen as dead.. After all holding a temple recommend is an announcement that you have paid your t i t h e.. Is that not sounding a trumpet before you as you enter the temple? It is just as easily seen as a the hypocrites in the day Jesus walked among us.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to?

DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Once again--is that dead faith you believe Ephesians is referring to? I need to know that before I can answer your question, as the scriptures make it clear that faith without works is dead. I believe you are referring to dead faith--right? If you are not--you have no argument--and the scriptures stand as is--faith without works is dead. Wherever one sees faith--they see obedience.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB your are being deceptive by avoiding answering my question.

No deception to it. The scriptures are plain--that faith without works is dead?. Do you believe that the faith spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is a reference to dead faith?