Faith vs Works for Salvation

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No deception to it.

It you are not trying to be deceptive then you should have no trouble answering my question. Here it is again for you.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It you are not trying to be deceptive then you should have no trouble answering my question. Here it is again for you.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Could you tell us if the "faith" in Ephesians2:8 is dead faith--or faith with works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It says a lot-

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

It says a lot--if the scriptures are true:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Could you tell us if the "faith" in Ephesians2:8 is dead faith--or faith with works?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?

I'd say that Christians believe that salvation is God's Work from first to last - that it is grace which calls us, and regenerates us, and by which we can have Faith in Christ unto salvation. Works are the result of salvation, not the means to it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It says a lot

It does say a lot. Perhaps you could get yourself to actually address what it does say.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What do these verses say about works contributing to our salvation?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

Here is the difference, as I see it.

Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?

Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.

BTW, when I said that Grace and works were two sides of the same coin...I went on to say it is that coin that is required to enter into God's presence. So maybe I just expanded on the phrase.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Well said, the two sides of the same coin was something I coined many years ago. To my knowledge never heard it before. Heaven forbid I would be saved by "my" works...I would be doomed.

But if works are required for your entrance into heaven that you are saved by your works in addition to your faith.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But if works are required for your entrance into heaven that you are saved by your works in addition to your faith.

I did not say this, heaven is a big places with kingdoms.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

I did not say this, heaven is a big places with kingdoms.

So living in a lower kingdom separated from God the Father is what your would call Heaven?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So living in a lower kingdom separated from God the Father is what your would call Heaven?

You believe the same as Islam, God is invisible as such how could anyone see him. Lower kingdoms does not mean you will not see Christ, and this is all most have come to desire.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Lower kingdoms does not mean you will not see Christ, and this is all most have come to desire.

So is that a yes or a no that you believe eternal separation from God the Father is what you would call Heaven?

[BigJulie]

Here is another old one....same people going over the same points. This last post was in 2009. Wow.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is another old one....same people going over the same points. This last post was in 2009. Wow.

And because the subject was discussed before it should no longer be allowed on the forum? By whose authority.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

what religion teaches there is a lower kingdom of heaven?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what religion teaches there is a lower kingdom of heaven?

Are you serious that you didn't know that mormonism teaches three different levels of heaven.. Three heavens? You didn't know that they divide even the heaven where the Father reigns into three levels? That is the standard uniquely LDS teaching about salvation.. All men are saved into some level of heaven (except sons of perdition of whom there are very few), but most men are ****ed because they never achieve exaltation. very few gain that level of salvation. That is where they can be made Gods, even the Sons of God.. yes they teach that few achieve Godhood but there are far more that reach that lofty height than are ****ed as sons of perdition.

I say there is one salvation and that is to come to Jesus receive forgiveness and live eternally with God in His house as His children. There is one punishment for not come to Jesus and being forgiven and that is the Lake of Fire and all who find their place there are the sons of perdition.. There is by far many more of them than those to are given life.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

seems like a very silly teaching if you ask me

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

seems like a very silly teaching if you ask me

I won't vote for silly, I will vote for totally unbiblical, wrong, and even blasphemous.. IHS jim

[Libby]

There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible. (Not saying I believe or know this...just throwing it out there).

2 Corinthians 12:1: "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

There is also mention of levels of rewards in heaven, like gold crowns for those who were particularly valiant (martyrs, for example).

I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ.

I love that song "Imagine"....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

There is some evidence of levels in heaven, in the Bible. (Not saying I believe or know this...just throwing it out there).

2 Corinthians 12:1: "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

Libby do you believe that there are 3 different heavens? What are these three heavens and what is the criteria for entrance into the first, second, and third heaven?

[Libby]

It would be very helpful, if you actually read my posts, Billy.

"I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ."

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

It would be very helpful, if you actually read my posts, Billy.

"I really have no idea what heaven will be like, other than we will finally meet Jesus Christ."

We can meet our neighbors, our friends, those we work and worship with.. But to say we will merely meet Jesus is a far cry from the fact that WE WILL BE WITH HIM. have an intimate connection to Him a connection not base of just being there but emerging ourselves in Him LOVE.. IHS jim