The Thief

[James Banta]

D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..

There are those that Jesus Himself called churches. For example the church of Ephesus from Rev 2:1, the church in Philadelphia from Rev 3:7.. In total Jesus specks of 7 churches in the context.. Each congregation is called a church.. In each of these local churches the Church, the called out ones, the body of Christ, meets one with the other. There is but one Church but the children of God ***emble together in different churches with different names all with different ways of operation under different human authority but all of them that are Christian look to their Lord and His word as the final authority in all matters.

Yes I could start a church.. That is not a hard thing to do nor is it an issue of faith.. It is a matter of where God would have you serve Him. All Christian churches no matter what the name on the building are gathering places for the real Church, God's children, to gather. This could ne in a park, on a hillside, in a Cathedral, or a person's home.. Each would have a name like Good Shepard Lutheran, or Sandy Ridge Community, or first Presbyterian. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is the Church meeting there with them? Those who by the grace of God through faith in Jesus have become children of the Most High. Is there one true Church, Yes it is all the believers is the Jesus revealed in the Bible.. Not believers in some man made image of God they have given the Biblical name to such as what mormonism has done with the Name of Jesus. Teaching that he was creation of some other god that in turn was the creation of some other created god.. That is just as bad as if I had made a garden gnome placed it in my back yard and called it Jesus and ascribed to it all the works the Bible teaches the real Jesus did.. Unless the Jesus of your worship conforms to the God of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible it is a man made image and NOT the God of ALL creation..

I have shown you that there were many churches scattered all over the known world in the time of John the Beloved. Yet we that there is one Church which is the body of Christ that all believers are a member.The Church is so called the Body of Jesus by the Apostle Paul in Col 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church". Again it is stated clearly and it not a hidden truth to anyone that will see..

Jesus never started a Church in his ministry. He did refer to it but the power for the Church to become was given through God the Holy spirit as He filled the believers at Pentecost. That is the birthday of the Church. She has existed from that time all the way down through the centuries until today. Her Lord told Her that He would build Her and the gates of Hell would not stand against Her. He promised to be with Her always until the very end of the age.. If that is the true Church then anything but that would be a false church.. Mormonism denies that message and just on that denial is a false church..

I will not speak against baptism as a commandment of Jesus that we should obey.. It's a small thing anyone can do. Still it is by the grace of God that salvation comes. It is Blood that brings atonement. Repentance is changing ones mind and taking on the name of Jesus. We are baptized into Him in His blood.. I still say that water baptism is conducted because of that remission because the blood of Jesus is NOT is that font, just water.. Water can aid in the cleansing of the body but has power to cleanse even one little sin.. Foe without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb 9:22). the three thousand saved that day in Jerusalem were saved as they "gladly received his word" and then they were baptized. Jesus added then all to the Church because of their faith.. As you can see believing that they were saved by their faith as they received the word is accepted by Me who believes that only by God's grace through faith and NOT by anything we can do are we saved fits nicely into the text of Acts 2:38-42..

Anyone that believes that doing your best to be obedient is obedient is a fool.. If anyone looks to obedience as the way to life must be obedient 100% or make sure that you have repented 100% and never again to commit the same sin tiem and again.. You have never told me about your obedience in keeping the whole of the Law of God.. Because if salvation is by works then doing the works of the Law is what God would require.. How was your in-gathering this year? Did you have a wonderful time at the feast of the booths? Who prepared the Lamb for the P***over? Are you really obedient? IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

dberrie----Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?

Originally Posted by James Banta

D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..

If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God.. There are no excuses no second chances.. I have shown you the p***ages that say that NOW is the day of salvation here are the ones that tell us how those that never heard of Jesus can be saved:

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

There is no excuse, no second chance.. To believe as the LDS church teaches is to deny the Bible.. I have shown you that I believe the Whole of the Bible.. Not with the slant I see in the mormon interpretation but as the Holy Spirit teaches it to me. It all fit together. All based on what God has done for us not what we try to do for Him or even for ourselves. Yes he prepares works for us to do, but my tasks my not be what He would ask you. These would not be our works but the works of He who would send us. Some are asked to offer their lives as a testimony, others to contribute out of the wealth God give to them. Some are called into the ministry of the word to teach. Everyone is gifted differently.. But our salvation has nothing to do with anything we can do.. As the Holy Spirit has taught me even our faith is His gift to those that He wills.. In God's knowledge and wisdom His choices have been made and all your complaints about their justice mean nothing..

And may God bless all the pygmies in Africa (Larry the Cable Guy).. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

Originally Posted by James Banta

God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God..

But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law, where there was no grace unto life.

And you are addressing those who did have a chance to hear the gospel--my question is--what about all those who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel?

What about those who were OT Gentile--which was before the Atonement and adoption into the seed of Abraham? Were they all sent to hell?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--

Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."


What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:


Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."


Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."


Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.

When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ? Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

dberrie---Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."


What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:


Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."


Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."


Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.

And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?

When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ?

What other gospel would have resulted in this:

Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Could you explain under what gospel those are adopted as being the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.
But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel. If you believe he did then show me from the OT any of the things that would be consistent with this gospel. Once you fail to do so I don't want to hear this bogus claim again. Comprende?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line. But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel.

There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

Another diversion tactic.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Here we go. The great big Billyray Merry-Go-Round.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Here we go. The great big Billyray Merry-Go-Round.

Marvin

If you can show me that they lived under the LDS type of gospel pre law then I wouldn't keep asking you guys this question.

Did they have baptism?

What about laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost?

Temple ordinances?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you can show me that they lived under the LDS type of gospel pre law then I wouldn't keep asking you guys this question.

Did they have baptism?

What about laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost?

Temple ordinances?

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.

Marvin

It obviously stops with you Marvin because you can't provide evidence for your claim that Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It obviously stops with you Marvin because you can't provide evidence for your claim that Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

And around and around.

Marvin

PS DBerrie has already pointout that there is no LDS gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Paul said that Abraham was living under the Gospel, he meant the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is all we need to know. And it is the greatest problem for you. The Bible teaches this and you are attempting to negate the Bible, which makes you anti-Biblical.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Marvin list for me all of the commandments that Abraham was under and then we can compare those to the LDS gospel.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin list for me all of the commandments that Abraham wad under and then we can compare those to the LDS gospel.

There is no LDS gospel.

Remember Billyray, this forum is about LDS beliefs, not about your personal distortions of what the LDS believe. Every time you use the phrase, "LDS gospel", you are violating the rule of the forum that you are constantly reminding us of, that this forum is about LDS belief. Please stop being the hypocrite by using this phrase. It is a reflection of your own distorted opinion and is not an LDS belief.

Marvin

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

Originally Posted by Billyray

DB please show me where Abraham lived under the LDS gospel.

Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find any mention of the "LDS gospel" in Galatians3:8:

Galatians3:8--"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

How does your changing the goalposts deny the fact that Abraham lived under the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. And on top of that--receiving the grace of God because he obeyed God's laws, statutes, and commandments:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That he received of the grace of God according to his obedience--violate any faith alone theology.

If it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all? Showing baptism, or any other specific ordinance cannot negate the fact it was the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very one who brought the gospel to Abraham.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. theology.

Then why do you ***ume it is the LDS gospel since you have absolutely no proof for this? The Bible gives us things that were given to Abraham to obey and this in no way matches the LDS gospel.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

And use the Bible to show us what these commands were. To leave the land where he was living, to have a son, to sacrifice his son etc. Are there any other commands that you want to add that in any way show that Abraham was under the LDS gospel?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Abraham didn't live under the LDS gospel. Can you show me any evidence that he did such as baptism?

dberrie---The scriptures have Abraham being taught the gospel, and living under the laws, statues, and commandments of Jesus Christ, no matter what you believe it is. And on top of that--receiving the grace of God because he obeyed God's laws, statutes, and commandments:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That he received of the grace of God according to his obedience--violates any faith alone theology.

If it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all? Showing baptism, or any other specific ordinance cannot negate the fact it was the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very one who brought the gospel to Abraham.

Originally Posted by Billyray

And use the Bible to show us what these commands were. To leave the land where he was living, to have a son, to sacrifice his son etc. Are there any other commands that you want to add that in any way show that Abraham was under the LDS gospel?

There is no LDS gospel, as I stated to you. There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all. Your adding "LDS" to that is only a diversion of your making. If you see anywhere I have stated that--please print it.

What it consisted of in no way addresses the fact that the scriptures state that Abraham was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, or that Abraham received of God's grace for obedience to that gospel laws, statutes, or commandments.

To be quite frank, Billyray--I see no more than your "add-on" diversions in your answers--which is why I started the changing goalposts thread. Your posts have no substance whatsoever.

You did really bad when you tried to defend your theology--now you spend your time in diversions--but appear even worse yet.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What it consisted of in no way addresses the fact that the scriptures state that Abraham was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, or that Abraham received of God's grace for obedience to that gospel laws, statutes, or commandments.

Show me from the Bible what those commandments were that Abraham was under.