Why would anyone remain in the mormon church?

[alanmolstad]

The Tree of Life changes you.
When you eat of it you are changed.
The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.
The tree of Life is the proof we find that Adam was created out of the dust as a mortal creature,

Humans were designed as mortal creatures that had the ability to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.

That is why the Tree Of Life is so important in understanding the mortal state man was created in.
It was the act of eating from the tree of Life that was to keep Adam from death.

The moment God kicked man out of the garden and out of reach of the Tree, man was condemned.
The moment Adam was unable to eat, he was doomed.
And that is why Adam died just like any other animals in creation.

Adam was created as a mortal creature, and he died as a mortal creature

[alanmolstad]

Im not sure where the false idea that Adam was created different than us got started?
Perhaps it was just a invented story told to little children when a teacher did not know the answer to a question?

But regardless of where the story got started, what we have clearly seen is that the actual Text of the Bible shows us that Adam was a completely normal human, just are mortal as we all today.

I have run into this same false teaching about Adam in my story of Young Earth Creationism many times.

The YEC teachers are well known to have added all kinds of weird things to be said about Adam>

Like Adam was 8 foot tall
Or had a 3' foot long foot print.
Or could run 100 mph, and jump over buildings, and was faster that a speeding bullet,,,(Oh wait, that's Superman....skip that last part)

Anyway the point is that a lot of false teachers have built up a whole bunch of false teachings about Genesis,and they have created their own ideas about what Adam was like when created.

They want to make him different.
They want him to be something we are not.
They want such things to be true because they have had to hang a whole bunch of other invented ideas on the Fact that Adam had to be different to make everything else they believe work.

They need Adam to be created different

I believe he was the same as us.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Tree of Life changes you.
When you eat of it you are changed.
The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.

How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

[alanmolstad]

yes...thats what Im saying
We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

That was the way Adam was created.


Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

You cant lose eternal life...

(If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )



Adam was a mortal creature, who was designed by his creator to live forever by eating the tree.

But because of the sin of Adam, God banned Adam from eating, then Adam was unchanged...thus Adam died.

The moment God kicked Adam out of the garden, man was condemned.

Adam was created mortal,and died mortal.
Dust we are, dust he returned to.

Adam was never anything other than just the dust if the earth.
Nothing about Adam's flesh was different in any way that any other creature.

And because of the results of Adam;s sin, we die....
This sin entered the world though Adam....and from the sin, death came to us all.



thats the answer to your question on 1 Corinthians 15:21

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes...thats what Im saying
We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

That was the way Adam was created.


Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

You cant lose eternal life...

(If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )

I'm not arguing eternal life--but immortality. All will inherit immortality through Christ's resurrection--but all will not inherit eternal life. They are two different things.

There isn't any evidence partaking of the tree couldn't maintain their immortality. It just isn't specifically explained in the scriptures.

One can go from immortality to mortality--and maybe even eternal life to mortality--as we see that in the case of Christ.

To focus on Adam and whether he had immortality or mortality before the Fall:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The Tree of Life changes you.

When you eat of it you are changed.

The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.

How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

I have started a new thread where we can focus your answer on that question--"Adam in the garden".

[Christian]

dberry posted:

I'm not arguing eternal life--but immortality. All will inherit immortality through Christ's resurrection--but all will not inherit eternal life. They are two different things.

Since when did 'all inherit immortality through Christ's resurrection?'

There isn't any evidence partaking of the tree couldn't maintain their immortality. It just isn't specifically explained in the scriptures.

One can go from immortality to mortality--and maybe even eternal life to mortality--as we see that in the case of Christ.

Christ did lots of things you cannot do. When was the last time YOU tried to walk on water? Jesus is God, you are not.

To focus on Adam and whether he had immortality or mortality before the Fall:

How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

I have started a new thread where we can focus your answer on that question--"Adam in the garden".[/QUOTE]

I 'collate' it by sorting the parchment from the newspaper, from the computer screen.

I will exegete it this way:

Because Adam sinned, Spiritual death came into the world. This p***age is about SPIRITUAL death, not just physical death. YOU STILL DIE PHYSICALLY.

1 Cor 15:20-24
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
NKJV

Heb 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJV

It says NOTHING about Jesus ending physical death or physical immortality (living forever). We still die physically. Jesus died ONCE to bear the sins of many. We are forgiven our sins because of Jesus, have eternal life because of Jesus; but we still die physically.

So don't walk out in front of a bus on the freeway yet. . .you will still die.

[alanmolstad]

I get dizzy with so many quoted in one post and so many colors used...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Because Adam sinned, [/COLOR]Spiritual death came into the world. This p***age is about SPIRITUAL death, not just physical death. YOU STILL DIE PHYSICALLY.

1 Cor 15:20-24
[COLOR=#B22222]20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

For me--it's self defeating to postulate a theory it was not physical death which Adam introduced into the world in the Fall--and then cite scripture that supports it was physical death:

1 Corinthians 15:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Some points here:

1) The Resurrection is a physical resurrection--and addresses the physical death. It's the physical body that's raised.

2) If this death came by man--then Adam introduced it, as, if it were through God Adam was mortal--then it would not be--"by man came death,"

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

For me--it's self defeating to postulate a theory it was not physical death which Adam introduced into the world in the Fall--and then cite scripture that supports it was physical death:

1 Corinthians 15:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Some points here:

1) The Resurrection is a physical resurrection--and addresses the physical death. It's the physical body that's raised.

2) If this death came by man--then Adam introduced it, as, if it were through God Adam was mortal--then it would not be--"by man came death,"

So you think good mormons like yourself will never physically die?

IF your theory were correct, you would be physically INDESTRUCTABLE.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post For me--it's self defeating to postulate a theory it was not physical death which Adam introduced into the world in the Fall--and then cite scripture that supports it was physical death:

1 Corinthians 15:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Some points here:

1) The Resurrection is a physical resurrection--and addresses the physical death. It's the physical body that's raised.

2) If this death came by man--then Adam introduced it, as, if it were through God Adam was mortal--then it would not be--"by man came death,"

Originally Posted by Christian

So you think good mormons like yourself will never physically die?

I'm not sure you understand the argument here, nor do I see anything in my above post which suggest any such thing as you postulate.

Even Christ died--and He was perfect. How good one is has nothing to do with the fact all men will die physically, as to the mortal body.

The point is-- Adam introduced death to mankind through his disobedience--not God.

If that is true--then Adam was immortal in the Garden, prior to the partaking of the fruit.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm not sure you understand the argument here, nor do I see anything in my above post which suggest any such thing as you postulate.

Even Christ died--and He was perfect. How good one is has nothing to do with the fact all men will die physically, as to the mortal body.

The point is-- Adam introduced death to mankind through his disobedience--not God.

If that is true--then Adam was immortal in the Garden, prior to the partaking of the fruit.

I am immortal. . .Spiritually.
I am MORTAL. . .physically.

You (if you are REALLY a mormon) are immortal, but SPIRITUALLY DEAD.
ALL MORMONS ARE MORTAL. . .physically, and they will DIE physically as well.

And I am WAITING FOR YOU TO PRODUCE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says that Adam would have never died physically if he had not sinned.

Of course all you can do is SPECULATE (as you have done). NO SCRIPTURE says that.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
IF they ever read their Bibles? NONE of the mormon-specific junk exists in the Bible or any first century writing. . .joseph smith made it all up. Upon reading the Bible ANYONE seeking God would notice that.

Which Bible?
KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, RSV, NASV, NEB, TEV, HCSB, NLT, TNIV, GNV, CET.....???

With confusion in doctrine between all these translations as well as the major doctrinal differences between all the Christian denominations...what Bible, and which "Christian" church??

It's so funny that you believe The Bible is that "last word" in authority, and then believe in the extra-biblical creeds that came later and added to the Bible. Oh, but that was different right?

And yes, I know, you will quote your single Isaiah verse that was dealing with the worship of false gods and idols. And your verse stating no other god "beside me" means no other God or being is equal to or more than Him. Which is true. He is and always will be our God, we will always worship Him, and no being, including His Son is equal to or greater than He. All are dependent upon Him.

So arm yourself with your one verse against the dozens of verses in the New Testament especially, that clearly and repeatedly teach the Father and The Son are separate (but one in purpose) Even as far as making SURE it's crystal clear during the baptism of Jesus (an account repeated in more than one Gospel) showing the Father, The Son & The Holy Ghost are separate individuals, and man still had to create their own definition that suited what THEY believe God should be.

Same Bible, different translations. Some translations are better than others some of the GOOD ones are better than some of the LOUSY ONES that have been put forth to promote specific cults such as the NLT (jw) and the 'Feminist Bible' and the so-called 'inspired version' (which even the mormon religions seem to not use even though joe smith supposedly looked at the rock in his hat to 'translate' it.). . .

You and your religion obviously know little to NOTHING about REALLY TRANSLATING from one language to another.

NOBODY I HAVE EVER HEARD OF believes the 'creeds' as being 'authoritative' over the Bible. They were NEVER 'added to the Bible.' Your religion is sharing its ignorance with you.

And your private interpretation of Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc is just plain SILLY AND NONSENSE

Of course the Father and Son are 'separate' Persons, but they are NOT EVER referred to as separate GODS. GOD DOES NOT LIE. Your cult has once again lied to you.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I'm not sure you understand the argument here, nor do I see anything in my above post which suggest any such thing as you postulate.

Even Christ died--and He was perfect. How good one is has nothing to do with the fact all men will die physically, as to the mortal body.

The point is-- Adam introduced death to mankind through his disobedience--not God.

If that is true--then Adam was immortal in the Garden, prior to the partaking of the fruit.

Originally Posted by Christian

I am immortal. . .Spiritually.
I am MORTAL. . .physically.

That's all well and good Christian, but the scripture given was a reference to physical death:

1 Corinthians 15:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I didn't refer to my beliefs, but to yours. The Godhead refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. You stated " I think better as it gets to the point of Jesus being God without any foolishness of The Father, Son and Holy Ghost being three solitary beings."

Okay, so you see "Godhead" or this divine nature ONLY referring to Christ then? and ignores the Father and Son? Is that what you think Paul and Peter meant when they spoke?

Your seeming inability to comprehend the English language is frustrating. You don't seem to retain anything from one post to the other.

I have stated that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ARE THE ONE GOD. This includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the "godhead" and the "divine nature".

What I had stated about what is foolishness concerning the current discussion is the idea that you insist that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate gods. There is only one God.(See Isaiah 43:10 to 12 and Isaiah 44:6 and 8)


Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

[Saxon]

Where did you find the "root" and what is it??

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

And I am WAITING FOR YOU TO PRODUCE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says that Adam would have never died physically if he had not sinned.

[/COLOR]

What I see in the Text is that the Tree Of Life kinda proves to us very clearly that Adam was first created as a normal mortal creature, and that the point of planting the Tree Of Life is that when man eats of it he gets to live forever.

Thats the TOF's point in being in the garden.


Now it is true that the only reason Adam would later die of old age is due to the sin, but we have to keep in mind that the results of the sin, (or the wages of sin) was that Adam was kept away from the Tree Of Life..

Thats why he died later...

He died later only because he was unable to eat due to his sin.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What I see in the Text is that the Tree Of Life kinda proves to us very clearly that Adam was first created as a normal mortal creature,

Again--if that is true--then God was responsible for introducing death, as part of man's inherent nature.

The scripture has man as the one who introduced death through Adam's disobedience:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Could you identify who the man is in the "by man came death"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--if that is true--then God was responsible for introducing death, as part of man's inherent nature.

The scripture has man as the one who introduced death through Adam's disobedience:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Could you identify who the man is in the "by man came death"?

Adam did not die until after the sin...so there was no human death in the garden at all....none...zip....zero...




Also, the fact that God planted the Tree Of life in the garden for man to eat proves 100% that man was created mortal and needed to eat to live forever....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--if that is true--then God was responsible for introducing death, as part of man's inherent nature.

The scripture has man as the one who introduced death through Adam's disobedience:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Could you identify who the man is in the "by man came death"?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Adam did not die until after the sin...so there was no human death in the garden at all....none...zip....zero...

No one is arguing that.

The question being--could you identify the man in "since by man came death,?

Who is that a reference to?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

n "since by man came death,?

As I have said in the past when debating people who trust the Young Earth teachings, when I was a much younger man I attended the 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by ken ham personally.

Although during the cl*** i only once asked Ken Ham a question, I would be constantly asked questions by my cl***mates over the next few years as it became clear to my church friends that i did not trust anything that Ken Ham was teaching.


One time in a after-cl*** discussion with my friends I asked them, "Why did Adam die?"
__________________________________________________ _____________

Why did Adam die?
He sinned.

So the sin killed him?..the moment he sinned he dropped over dead?
No he lived for many years yet.

But what killed him?
God said that if he ate of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die.

Is that what the Bible says?...for my bible says that the "day" he eats of the tree he will die....So did he die that very same day?
Well yes and no, he did live for a long time after, but that day he died, just 'spiritually"

In other words..."invisibly"?
Yes...he died in the flesh years later but he died that same day spiritually.

Thats fine, except for one thing, Thats not in the BIBLE!
What do you mean?

The Bible tells us that god told Adam that the day he eats of the tree he will die, case closed, there is not a word about living for years but just dying spiritually that same day!



Well we know it could not be just talking about physical death because Adam lived long past that day, so it must be talking about spiritual death.
Why?
Ummm....
Why must it be talking about something that it does not say one word about in the text?

Well unless its talking about Adam dying spiritually then there is a problem as God clearly said he would die that very same day..


Oh I get it now, the way you understand the story kinda forces you to come up with the "He died spiritually" because without that answer God's words are in error?
yes...

Well....there is not a hint that god was talking about Adam just dieing spiritually that same day, thats an invented idea just to help get God off the hook.

You might just as well say "Adam died Metaphysically"...or "Romantically"... or "symbolically" as they are just as not found in the text as saying he died "spiritually"...

All such invented answers are just aimed at getting God off the hook of being wrong...

and they are groundless...and false....

They have no support in the Bible...






So what killed Adam then?

The only thing the Bible says killed Adam! what the Bible says, and that that Adam died at a very old age.....

Thats all?..but what about God's judgement?

God's judgement is the real reason he died at all.


What do you mean?

Just read the story and look for any sign that God changed Adam, or that God killed Adam?
Well, we dont see that in the story.

That's right, there is nothing in the whole story about Adam to suggest that God changed Adam in even the slightest way after the sin.

So why did he die?

Look at the story, does God kill Adam?

No,, not directly.

Thats right, what is the only thing God does in the story that effects Adam's life and condemns him to death?
He kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden.


YES! thats why Adam died.

The only thing God does against the flesh and human nature of Adam was to kick him out of the garden so that Adam could not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever..


Thats all God does...

Yet the moment God does this, it condemns Adam to death.

So Adam was not changed?
Adam was not changed in his flesh or his human nature...the body of Adam did not change...Yet he died by this one single act by God in judgement.



and it happens that very day....

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
IF they ever read their Bibles? NONE of the mormon-specific junk exists in the Bible or any first century writing. . .joseph smith made it all up. Upon reading the Bible ANYONE seeking God would notice that

.

[QUOTE=MickeyS;166761]Which Bible?
KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, RSV, NASV, NEB, TEV, HCSB, NLT, TNIV, GNV, CET.....???

[quote]
NONE OF IT IS IN ANY DECENT TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE. Joey smith tried to ADD junk to the Bible to make it 'look like' it was in there, but even the LDS RELIGION does not use HIS 'translation' much at all. THEY USE the KJV.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 No one is arguing that.

The question being--could you identify the man in "since by man came death,?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Who is that a reference to?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As I have said in the past when debating people who trust the Young Earth teachings, when I was a much younger man I attended the 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by ken ham personally.

Although during the cl*** i only once asked Ken Ham a question, I would be constantly asked questions by my cl***mates over the next few years as it became clear to my church friends that i did not trust anything that Ken Ham was teaching.

One time in a after-cl*** discussion with my friends I asked them, "Why did Adam die?"

I'm not sure what Ken Ham has to do with my question--nor your belabored post.

My question is simply--who is the reference of "by man came death", referring to in 1Cor15:21?

I'm looking for a name.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm not sure what Ken Ham has to do with my question--nor your belabored post.

My question is simply--who is the reference of "by man came death", referring to in 1Cor15:21?

I'm looking for a name.

see post Number #120 above...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI'm not sure what Ken Ham has to do with my question--nor your belabored post.

My question is simply--who is the reference of "by man came death", referring to in 1Cor15:21?

I'm looking for a name.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post Number #120 above...

I don't see any answer there. It would not be hard to post that specific name from your post--would it?

I mean--if you don't mind posting a long, belabored post--then you shouldn't mind giving us a quick name--should you?

It boils down to Adam--or God--so it can't require more than four letters, at the most.

Com'on Alan--you can do it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

.......-you can do it.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...367#post170367

( see post number #36 )