Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
What works are required according to the above verses?dberrie----All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.
As you stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray
Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.
Quote:
Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
Quote:
Billyray---Lifesaving faith IS required FOR salvation so I am not sure what you are talking about.
Again--all the works that "belief" in Christ incurs.
We might begin by asking--what works are you referring to when you state--
So--what works are you referring to?James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.
I don't think you understood my question. Care to try again?
According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?
But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?
I understand your question, Billyray. My answer stands as is. Belief in Christ incorporates obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral components, just as a car has a transmission and engine as it's integral components.
What is your evidence that faith, belief, or trust does not incorporate obedience to Jesus Christ?
What works do you attach to your statement:
Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Christ was asked a very specific question about what works were required and what did Christ say? To believe in the one he has sent. Period.
None. Works do not contribute FOR salvation. The thief was saved and he did not have works.
Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
What works do you attach to your statement:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?dberrie---But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.You have another problem here, Billyray. The LDS do not believe infants are sinners. You do. The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.
Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?
[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
What works do you attach to your statement:
Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
So--you state that faith without works is dead, and those who have dead faith are not saved.
Then--there is no works you attach to your "faith without works is dead" statement, and that there is no works necessary for salvation.
Billyray--someone is confused.
A person is saved by faith in Christ not their works. Just like the thief on the cross was saved by his faith because he did not have works.
Tell me what this means to you "Those who have dead faith are not saved"
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?That Christ saves through His sacrifice is not the problem--the LDS believe that--and, in fact, is the very reason that the LDS believe that infants are born saved.
The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.
How does the Atonement bring infants to eternal life in your theology?
Which infants? How?
Just like every single person is a sinner. As I said the Bible doesn't speak about infants so anything I say is speculation. But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism he could do the same under Christian theology. So I am not sure what you take issue with.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.Accountable. And the accountability of youth is not the same as adults, considering the youth and the adult is of sound mind.
Not all youth are capable of understanding right from wrong--and that is taken into account also.
They may not understand right from wrong but they still sin. And yet they sin and are saved without baptism.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.I believe that it is possible that the Bible does speak of children:
Galatians4:1-2--"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."
The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism
If you believe they are--could you share how you believe infants sin?
2 Samuel 12
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”
22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
As I said there is an indication from this p***age that the infant who dies will go to heaven. (BTW I know the LDS position on David but that is a topic for another thread)