Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.

I think this is what Dr. Mouw was referring to when he said that he was in a room listening to Walter Martin and when a young LDS man stood up crying and said---what you say is not true, we believe that we are saved by grace and WM replied, "see how they teach them to lie?"

*sigh*

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Come on DB don't ignore these verses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

dberrie-----you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

Originally Posted by Billyray

And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

I say that when you start your circling pattern. What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

Circling is not a viable alternative.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Circling is not a viable alternative.

I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.



Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through,

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS. Baptism is a work. So why do you think baptism contributes FOR salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS.

And it's not of faith either. It's by grace. So--do you believe that faith contributes to salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

dberrie----I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.
It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through, --that I need to repost it four times?

You can do it, Billyray. I have confidence in you. Throw me a challenge, other than recircling the wagons.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through,

So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

No, it is grace that allows us to have faith and thereby works.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul understands also that faith without works is dead--so he makes it clear that it is grace that saves us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And it's not of faith either. It's by grace.

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

Paul concludes it--and we conclude it as well as infants who die are saved without grace and without works.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

Faith without works is dead. Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.

So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

Well, an infant who dies does not need faith or works. So, what "contributes for our salvation" is that we give all of our might, mind, and strength to God.

Hmmm, let me get this straight. Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

You expect to be exalted and not give your all to God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

Your answer does not state what part works play in your exaltation. Could you address that for me?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.

You believe that faith AND works contribute for exaltation yet you and DB are trying to sidestep this fact. Just admit it.